Poll: AR vs AK Cage Match

[Boboclown]

I'll agree there! I'm really interested, though, in what an AK can do that an AR can't. The only thing I'm aware of is that they are reportedly harder to bend having a one piece receiver.

If you're brave enough it could make a good tent spike with a bayonet? Or a shovel? Idk.

 

[Knobgoblin]

I'll agree there! I'm really interested, though, in what an AK can do that an AR can't. The only thing I'm aware of is that they are reportedly harder to bend having a one piece receiver.

If we're comparing 7.62x39 to 5.56 , the former does a better job of magically turning cover into concealment. Especially residential structures.

 

[ma96782]

Can't make up your mind?

How about......a compromise or an abomination......maybe it's both?

CMMG Mk47 Mutant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Aloha, Mark

PS.....BUT, But, but.....will that dawg hunt?

And.....you get a choice.

 

[Boboclown]

Can't make up your mind?

How about......a compromise or an abomination......maybe it's both?

CMMG Mk47 Mutant - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Aloha, Mark

PS.....BUT, But, but.....will that dawg hunt?

And.....you get a choice.

IMHO without a side charging handle, an AR that takes AK mags is even less ergonomic.

 

[American123]

This horse had been pureed time and time again, across the interent with videos and specs, but anyway…

It depends on what is being compared:

I watched a video where a basic car door panel was shot through with what I will call "standard" rifles of each, AR and AK and "standard" loads of each, 223 FMJ and 7.62x39 FMJ.

The AR didn't reliably put rounds through the door with such effectiveness that the dummy inside was seriously harmed, the AK did.

The argument can be made that the cartridges in both can be changed… true, but I've heard/read that was something that was experienced in the field going as far back as Vietnam. Barrier penetration or lack thereof matters.

In terms of ergonomics. I view it as mostly ultimately a wash, at least with modern gear with Mlock rails, etc. you can put lights on both, sights on both, sling both, etc. These details matter.

I do view LRBHO as a significant difference, but with good training and AK mags that have the BHO followers, one that can be overcome almost entirely. These details matter.

Claims about differences in accuracy are true, but also very much exaggerated. Typically an AR will have a lower MOA than an AK, but are we comparing quality ammunition in both? - Typically not, typically an AR ammo is a higher quality than the AK ammo being used for comparison. That being said, what are the realistic engagement distances of troops in the field. I don't mean what it is claimed the rifle is capable of, I mean, actually being able to see a target and put a bead on it and pull the trigger? 400 yards, 300 yards, 200 yards? Whatever it is, if we are comparing apples to apples, I'm saying it's about a wash. A 2 MOA AR will make an 8" circle at 400 yards. A 4 MOA AK will make a 16" circle at 400 yards. If we are talking about center of mass high thoracic area of the human body, a 16" diameter circle is still hitting that body in almost every shot fired. These details matter. "But targets aren't just standing erect, what if they prone out and reduce that target area to about an 8" circle" - and that's why I said it is ABOUT a wash, but the average male has a shoulder cross section that is about 16" wide, so if an enemy is proned out shooting at you, there head and their shoulders are still filling the majority of that 16" diameter circle at 400 yards.

I own both, I'm competent with both, if I were forced to use either one I would not feel at a disadvantage so long as the accompanying gear was equivalent. If one boy has Nods, designators and Thermal and other boy doesn't, obviously those details matter, and they matter far more than who has the AR and who has the AK. The tool that is the rifle will only get a person so far, the training, experience, accompanied tech and skills the person holding that tool has will be far more important, and make far more of a difference.

I think it is important to note that it is illegal to hunt deer in Washington with a .223 because it is not deemend sufficient to produce an ethical stop/kill of an animal, while it is legal to hunt deer with a .30 caliber chambering. I do not deny that the .223 has put a lot of people in the dirt, I perceive a .30 caliber bullet at 110gr with proper construction and flying at the speeds a 16" 7.62x39 could push it, would be a better dirt nap supplier.

The Tavor is my preferred rifle, quality bullpups are my jam, but I think to be proficient in the popular arms of the time is important so everyone should own and train with AR's and AK's and whatever else they want.

 

[DunRanull]

IMHO without a side charging handle, an AR that takes AK mags is even less ergonomic.

One of the things that attracts me to the H&K is the left side bolt charging handle. The "gun hand" never leaves the grip/trigger area. Better control of the firearm in my experience.

 

[American123]

One of the things that attracts me to the H&K is the left side bolt charging handle. The "gun hand" never leaves the grip/trigger area. Better control of the firearm in my experience.

For clarification, you can charge an AK with the support hand going over, or under. Not denying shooter facing side would be easier, but if we are going to dive into the pool of possibilities, a non-reciprocating charging handle is preferred.

 

[DunRanull]

For clarification, you can charge an AK with the support hand going over, or under. Not denying shooter facing side would be easier, but if we are going to dive into the pool of possibilities, a non-reciprocating charging handle is preferred.

The support hand going over works- going under IME not so much. I've been toying with the idea of having a knowledgeable handy smith weld an upright piece to the bolt handle to make it easier to access. But for the $$$ spent I'd be better off getting a better rear sight first. Something like a tech sight, maybe....

 

[American123]

The support hand going over works- going under IME not so much. I've been toying with the idea of having a knowledgeable handy smith weld an upright piece to the bolt handle to make it easier to access. But for the $$$ spent I'd be better off getting a better rear sight first. Something like a tech sight, maybe....

I suppose relative arm/finger strength matters a lot in this example. Young strong people and older, weaker people have different ideas of what is physically difficult or not.

Not casting any judgements, just stating facts.

For example - holding an AR at the shoulder at the ready, using only the trigger hand and no support hand, is a physical task that requires some arm/hand/finger strength. Someone who can do that can also probably go under an AK to charge it without strength being an issue.

 

[DunRanull]

I suppose relative arm/finger strength matters a lot in this example. Young strong people and older, weaker people have different ideas of what is physically difficult or not.

Not casting any judgements, just stating facts.

For example - holding an AR at the shoulder at the ready, using only the trigger hand and no support hand, is a physical task that requires some arm/hand/finger strength. Someone who can do that can also probably go under an AK to charge it without strength being an issue.

Not a matter of brawn, it's a matter of which way is handier, quicker..

 

[American123]

Not a matter of brawn, it's a matter of which way is handier, quicker..

I wouldn't be so sure, imagine just rocking a new mag into the well. Your hand is already below the rifle. To charge it over the top you have to move it up and over the reciever (potentially optics too) to reach the charging handle and pull it rearward, then your hand goes back over the rifle to the foregrip.

Going under, your hand is already at the magwell, it slips behind the mag and reaches the charging handle, pulling it rearward, then it comes back and out to the foregrip.

In both examples the number of times the hand crosses the rifle is the same, the distance the hand travels is about the same and the locations they touch are the same.

We're just having fun with minor details at this point, but tomorrow I'll do some mag changes out of sheer curiosity to see. The anatomy of the arms and shoulders and how they bend might be a factor, but I'm not sure.

 

[Knobgoblin]

I wouldn't be so sure, imagine just rocking a new mag into the well. Your hand is already below the rifle. To charge it over the top you have to move it up and over the reciever (potentially optics too) to reach the charging handle and pull it rearward, then your hand goes back over the rifle to the foregrip.

Going under, your hand is already at the magwell, it slips behind the mag and reaches the charging handle, pulling it rearward, then it comes back and out to the foregrip.

In both examples the number of times the hand crosses the rifle is the same, the distance the hand travels is about the same and the locations they touch are the same.

We're just having fun with minor details at this point, but tomorrow I'll do some mag changes out of sheer curiosity to see. The anatomy of the arms and shoulders and h ow they bend might be a factor, but I'm not sure.

Run a gross motor skill reload once or twice, Ala Travis Haley

 

[American123]

Run a gross motor skill reload once or twice, Ala Travis Haley

Will need to look that up.

Ok - looked it up. Not sure how that is relevant to what we were discussing. That looked like an absolute last ditch effort to reload if your fingers weren't functioning.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Will need to look that up.

Ok - looked it up. Not sure how that is relevant to what we were discussing. That looked like an absolute last ditch effort to reload if your fingers weren't functioning.

It's cardio

And showing off.

 

[American123]

It's cardio

And showing off.

It has a legitimate point, even if very minor. It is possible to perform reloads without finger dexterity, I think the point was simply that it can be done and you could still be "in the fight" even if you lost function in those fingers.

It reminds me of racking a pistol off the belt to perform a reload on a pistol that hasn't locked back to slide lock. If you lost control of your support hand, how would you do it with 1 hand - that's a way it can be done. These mental exercises are just training the mind to adapt and already have the plan of adaptation practiced so that if it becomes necessary to use, it's already there known about and effective. Call it a "plan B" if you will. Same thing with shooting 1 handed and with both the dominant and non dominant hand. Just practice.

 

[Boboclown]

Typically not, typically an AR ammo is a higher quality than the AK ammo being used for comparison.

What I like about my Arsenal 106 (5.56) and .308 Vepr is the ammo variety and quality. Both are much better than any of my 7.62x39 AKs and its because of ammo quality.

 

[3MTA3]

Quick question for the 7.62x39 crowd: How much of a PIA is corrosive ammo? Do you simply clean after each session and do you need to use anything different than for non corrosive ammo? Or is it just "Nyet! We don't need no stinking girly man unpitted rifle barrels."?

 

[AshWilliams]

Quick question for the 7.62x39 crowd: How much of a PIA is corrosive ammo? Do you simply clean after each session and do you need to use anything different than for non corrosive ammo? Or is it just "Nyet! We don't need no stinking girly man unpitted rifle barrels."?

You can use a water bottle or a hose, but you just need to rinse out the action and the barrel after each shooting session.

 

[Dr Prepper]

You can use a water bottle or a hose, but you just need to rinse out the action and the barrel after each shooting session.

And the gas tube, piston, *gas port. Etc.
My buddy seized up his PSL from a rusty gas tube.

Edit: I should also note even though the rust was so bad it was seized, some lightish taps with a leather or plastic/rubber mallet freed it up and might be slightly worse for the wear and chrome didn't stop the rust (it did on the piston rod.. ??? ) but once scrubbed the piss out of it did work fine and actually looked surprising decent considering its neglect. I guess that's a testament to the platform.

 

[Boboclown]

Quick question for the 7.62x39 crowd: How much of a PIA is corrosive ammo? Do you simply clean after each session and do you need to use anything different than for non corrosive ammo? Or is it just "Nyet! We don't need no stinking girly man unpitted rifle barrels."?

Just water the gun down and dry it off, then oil.