Ar pistol, becoming aow? With vertical foregrip?

[arakboss]

A "firearm" can never have been a pistol, rifle or shotgun. Therefore a pistol with a vertical grip cannot legally ever be a "firearm".

Amateur hour indeed.

We are talking what is LEGAL here per the ATF, not technical terms. What is legally a handgun is not necessarily really a handgun. An AR "pistol" is legally a "pistol" but it is really a rifle with a short barrel when you ignore the laws and ATF regs/rules. Don't mix the two together when talking about what is legal in the USA and what isn't - step over the border into Canada and all the rules and laws change.

If OP builds a virgin firearm with no stock and 26+ inches in length, it should be a firearm and not a pistol, rifle or shotgun. In that case he should be allowed to install a vertical foregrip with creating an AOW, providing he doesn't conceal the weapon?

 

[User 1234]

I should have said "remove the front grip when the upper is attached to the pistol lower." I'll go edit my post.

 

[JedB]

Shed some light, or inform me if misinformed, overall length, could make an AR Pistol, AOW? If vertical foregrip installed?

As an example, below are my AR-15 pistol (left) and AR-15 SBR (right). Serial numbers greyed out.
The pistol has the angled fore grip, which I suppose could violate the ATF ruling on making a pistol into an AOW. It would be a big stretch, but then again, lawyers get paid due to grey areas.
The SBR (NFA stamp) can have the vertical grip, so no worries there.

 

[The Heretic]

If OP builds a virgin firearm with no stock and 26+ inches in length, it should be a firearm and not a pistol, rifle or shotgun. In that case he should be allowed to install a vertical foregrip with creating an AOW, providing he doesn't conceal the weapon?

Firearm as in "firearm" (legally a "firearm") that is neither (and never was) a rifle (can't have rifling), a shotgun (was never a shotgun with a stock, never sold or manufactured as a shotgun) and was never a handgun?

Then yes - you can put a veritcal foregrip on a "firearm". You can put a vertical foregrip a Shockwave or a Tac-14, et. al. - I am going to put one on my Shockwave that has the pistol brace on it, maybe on the other too.

Also, I believe that if you put an 18" barrel on a Shockwave/Tac-14/et.al., and then put a buttstock on it, that it will then legally be a shotgun. At that point, you probably cannot legally change it back into a "firearm", because of the definition of such a "firearm" means it was never a shotgun at any point in time.

Interestingly, Shockwaves have nothing on them (that I know of) that says they are a Shockwave "firearm" - they have the same markings as the Mossberg 590 shotgun (no mention of "Shockwave"), but with the raptor grip and short barrel.

The only way somebody would know it is not a SBS and is a "firearm" is to check the serial number (with the ATF, or maybe with the state, if the state is like Orygun or WA - not sure about the latter).

 

[arakboss]

Firearm as in "firearm" (legally a "firearm") that is neither (and never was) a rifle (can't have rifling), a shotgun (was never a shotgun with a stock, never sold or manufactured as a shotgun) and was never a handgun?

Then yes - you can put a veritcal foregrip on a "firearm". You can put a vertical foregrip a Shockwave or a Tac-14, et. al. - I am going to put one on my Shockwave that has the pistol brace on it, maybe on the other too.

Also, I believe that if you put an 18" barrel on a Shockwave/Tac-14/et.al., and then put a buttstock on it, that it will then legally be a shotgun. At that point, you probably cannot legally change it back into a "firearm", because of the definition of such a "firearm" means it was never a shotgun at any point in time.

Interestingly, Shockwaves have nothing on them (that I know of) that says they are a Shockwave "firearm" - they have the same markings as the Mossberg 590 shotgun (no mention of "Shockwave"), but with the raptor grip and short barrel.

The only way somebody would know it is not a SBS and is a "firearm" is to check the serial number (with the ATF, or maybe with the state, if the state is like Orygun or WA - not sure about the latter).

If you build an AR15 (no stock) with a rifled barrel that is 26+ inches in length. What do you have? It's not a pistol, it's not a rifle and it's not a shotgun. It's simply a firearm. You should be able to add a vertical foregrip to it without changing it's classification. If you add a pistol brace that also should not change the classification. Am I wrong with this idea?

 

[User 1234]

I've not seen any federal laws that prohibit converting a handgun to a Title 1 "firearm."

 

[User 1234]

Title-1™

Title 1™a New Option for California!Minden, NV, October 15, 2019– Franklin Armory®, the makers of CA7™ (the only California Roster approved AR,) introduces a new long gun for the Golden State that is neither “featureless” or “mag locked.” The Franklin Armory® Title 1™ was created for our...

franklinarmory.com

 

[irwinhn1]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, BUT if you have an extended buffer tube to get over the 26" minimum it DOES NOT count anymore.I would stay away from vertical grips on pistols. Too many confusing laws and grey areas. the BCM KAG grip is the closest thing to a VFG (that i've found) while still remaining an AFG

 

[User 1234]

Vertical front grips on pistols are clear cut NFA features.

 

[arakboss]

Not sure if anyone mentioned it, BUT if you have an extended buffer tube to get over the 26" minimum it DOES NOT count anymore.I would stay away from vertical grips on pistols. Too many confusing laws and grey areas. the BCM KAG grip is the closest thing to a VFG (that i've found) while still remaining an AFG

Do you have source for this info regarding extended buffer tubes not counting in overall length.

 

[arakboss]

"Vertical front grips on pistols are clear cut NFA features."

Agreed that is why it is important to determine whether you have a pistol or not.

 

[The Heretic]

If you build an AR15 (no stock) with a rifled barrel that is 26+ inches in length. What do you have? It's not a pistol, it's not a rifle and it's not a shotgun. It's simply a firearm. You should be able to add a vertical foregrip to it without changing it's classification. If you add a pistol brace that also should not change the classification. Am I wrong with this idea?

If it has a rifled barrel, it's either a rifle (SBR or not) or a pistol or AOW per the ATF. It won't be a "firearm" if it has a rifled barrel.

 

[User 1234]

Rifled barrel with length over 26" can be a non-pistol "firearm" if it is not designed to be fired with one hand. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)

That's the point of the Franklin Armory Title 1. It isn't a pistol, rifle or shotgun so none of California's "assault weapons" laws apply to it.

 

[The Heretic]

Rifled barrel with length over 26" can be a non-pistol "firearm" if it is not designed to be fired with one hand. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)

That's the point of the Franklin Armory Title 1. It isn't a pistol, rifle or shotgun so none of California's "assault weapons" laws apply to it.

This? I don't see how that applies, and I have so many browser windows open that I can't get the Franklin page to render

18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions

www.law.cornell.edu

(29)The term "handgun" means—
(A)
a firearm which has a short stock and is designed to be held and fired by the use of a single hand; and
(B)
any combination of parts from which a firearm described in subparagraph (A) can be assembled.

 

[arakboss]

Rifled barrel with length over 26" can be a non-pistol "firearm" if it is not designed to be fired with one hand. 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(29)

That's the point of the Franklin Armory Title 1. It isn't a pistol, rifle or shotgun so none of California's "assault weapons" laws apply to it.

My understanding is that for a firearm to be to be a rifle it has to have a stock. In order for it to be a handgun it has to be designed to be fired with one hand.

If it has neither of these traits it is just a firearm. One could argue whether or not an AR15 is designed to be fired with one hand but my feeling is that it was not designed to be fired in that way.

 

[User 1234]

27 CFR 479.11.

 

[User 1234]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-may2006-open-letter-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download

If the "firearm" is not a handgun, not a pistol, because it is not intended to be fired with one hand, and is over 26" then the vertical front grip does not make it an AOW. Be careful though, because the "concealed upon the person" issue gets complicated very quickly.

 

[The Heretic]

My understanding is that for a firearm to be to be a rifle it has to have a stock. In order for it to be a handgun it has to be designed to be fired with one hand.

If it has neither of these traits it is just a firearm. One could argue whether or not an AR15 is designed to be fired with one hand but my feeling is that it was not designed to be fired in that way.

That is a grey area that I thought about in the past; i.e., what happens legally in the USA when you put a 16" barrel on an AR pistol and it is over 26" in length? Is it a rifle without the buttstock? What about if you put a pistol brace on it?

Interesting. All these little loopholes in the law - makes me wonder why people didn't think of this decades ago?

I have an upper with a 14.5" barrel and a soldered on flash hider that takes it just over 16" and makes the firearm 26"+ long. Is it a pistol still? A rifle? A firearm?

It is late - way past my bedtime. I will let Franklin, California, ATF and the SCOTUS hash this one out. Either way, at this point in time, it is legal for federal law, not sure about California or WA state. Legal in Orygun - for now. Wonder how long it will take California to add an amendment to their laws to ban it? Remember, what the feds define as a pistol/rifle/shotgun/"machine gun" is not necessarily the same as what a state defines it to be. E.G. the Shockwave is still a SBS in some states - including California?

 

[arakboss]

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/open-letter/all-ffls-may2006-open-letter-adding-vertical-fore-grip-handgun/download

If the "firearm" is not a handgun, not a pistol, because it is not intended to be fired with one hand, and is over 26" then the vertical front grip does not make it an AOW. Be careful though, because the "concealed upon the person" issue gets complicated very quickly.

The question of whether the AR15 is designed to be fired from one hand still stands. Clearly many of the braces available are designed to aid the ability to shoot an AR15 with one hand. And even without a brace the AR15 can be shot with one hand due to the grip extending below the bore line.

 

[titsonritz]

Another option is a finger stop like the ones from Arisaka...
Finger Stop M-Lok - Arisaka