Ar pistol, becoming aow? With vertical foregrip?

[Chadwellz28]

Shed some light, or inform me if misinformed, overall length, could make an AR Pistol, AOW? If vertical foregrip installed?

Read More

 

[User 1234]

If the AR pistol is less than 26" with the brace folded/collapsed then it cannot have a vertical front grip unless it has an AOW stamp. The ATF regularly changes its standards for measuring these.

I would just get an SBR stamp and have a stock and forward vertical grip.

 

[American123]

If the AR pistol is less than 26" with the brace folded/collapsed then it cannot have a vertical front grip unless it has an AOW stamp. The ATF regularly changes its standards for measuring these.

I would just get an SBR stamp and have a stock and forward vertical grip.

Except for then the CPL won't apply to the SBR so you can't transport it loaded in a car legally, or then have to consider the laws pertaining to SBR's when crossing state lines.

Long story short the GCA and NFA suck.

 

[The Heretic]

^^ Yes and yes and yes ^^

AOW == any pistol with forward vertical grip

 

[Ops]

AOW == any pistol with forward vertical grip

not true

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

I wouldn't at all mount a vertical grip on a pistol, even if it met OAL.

 

[StacattoP]

From what I seen you have to measure from the bottom of the flash hider to the end of the buffer tube and the atf ruled that the brace is considered an accessorie that does not add to the length of the pistol
Check out this video it tells you a little bit about it remeber I'm not an expert.

 

[Chadwellz28]

Ok, I had read the nfa ideas, and I think I fit the loopholes for now, I just wanted to know if there was a subparagraph, or article that I missed. Thanks a bunch!

 

[Chadwellz28]

I wouldn't at all mount a vertical grip on a pistol, even if it met OAL.

Because of the law? Or because you dont like them?

 

[StacattoP]

Ok, I had read the nfa ideas, and I think I fit the loopholes for now, I just wanted to know if there was a subparagraph, or article that I missed. Thanks a bunch!

Welce to the fourm by the way! Happy hunting

 

[The Heretic]

not true

https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download

 

[Chadwellz28]

https://www.atf.gov/file/97256/download

Thanks! That's exactly what I was looking for. I'm glad to have found a wealth of knowledge with this forum.

 

[terdog]

Why not have a forward grip that is NOT verticle?

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

Because of the law? Or because you dont like them?

Sorry, I didnt clarify. Due to the law and the constant changing opinion letters of NFA definitions. Though to me, others and on paper it makes sense and meets the definition.. the flip flopping of definitions makes me weary.. personally.. that being said 922r is a "code/law".. but no one follows it.. so in reality.. the VG on a pistol I highly doubt would ever be trouble for an average user. Myself, I whole heartedly understand the will to use one and skirt the law.. but.. The government and local DA are dicks..

However.. I guess the same thing was first said about braces when they first came about and now look at them.. its commonplace.. so truthfully if it meets the legal requirements. Go for it.

To answer the other half Of the question for use, Pistol use wise it makes total sense, The MP5 being a perfect, sexy example. A support hand is needed on pistols in general more often than not.. a vert grip accomplishes that very well for "cumbersome" (AR/AK..etc) large pistols.

Rifles though, Im not a fan. I always mount, remember its not for me and dismount some time after.

 

[Chadwellz28]

Why not have a forward grip that is NOT verticle?

AFG? that's what I'm gonna end up running.

 

[Chadwellz28]

Sorry, I didnt clarify. Due to the law and the constant changing opinion letters of NFA definitions. Though to me, others and on paper it makes sense and meets the definition.. the flip flopping of definitions makes me weary.. personally.. that being said 922r is a "code/law".. but no one follows it.. so in reality.. the VG on a pistol I highly doubt would ever be trouble for an average user. Myself, I whole heartedly understand the will to use one and skirt the law.. but.. The government and local DA are dicks..

However.. I guess the same thing was first said about braces when they first came about and now look at them.. its commonplace.. so truthfully if it meets the legal requirements. Go for it.

To answer the other half Of the question for use, Pistol use wise it makes total sense, The MP5 being a perfect, sexy example. A support hand is needed on pistols in general more often than not.. a vert grip accomplishes that very well for "cumbersome" (AR/AK..etc) large pistols.

Rifles though, Im not a fan. I always mount, remember its not for me and dismount some time after.

I understand the weariness of the "definitions," and "terms," etc. How quick they are to "change they're mind," on an idea. I just have a couple of cool pistols I've setup, and I always found I shoot better with grip, an "AFG," Or vertical, and I have a couple of fancy setups laying around from deployments, I still haven't decided how I like the grip, or the weight, that a surefire/grip, and all the little compartments that take batteries, they really made a 10.5" barrel 5.56 cumbersome.

 

[Ops]

a pistol with a vertical grip with a overall length of +26" is a firearm not a aow.

amateur hour tonight

 

[User 1234]

As far as pistol status for CPL purposes, one AR lower with an SBR stamp, one pistol lower with a brace. Just don't keep the vertical front grip attached to the gun when it is on the pistol lower.

 

[The Heretic]

a pistol with a vertical grip with a overall length of +26" is a firearm not a aow.

amateur hour tonight

A "firearm" can never have been a pistol, rifle or shotgun. Therefore a pistol with a vertical grip cannot legally ever be a "firearm".

Amateur hour indeed.

We are talking what is LEGAL here per the ATF, not technical terms. What is legally a handgun is not necessarily really a handgun. An AR "pistol" is legally a "pistol" but it is really a rifle with a short barrel when you ignore the laws and ATF regs/rules. Don't mix the two together when talking about what is legal in the USA and what isn't - step over the border into Canada and all the rules and laws change.

 

[The Heretic]

As far as pistol status for CPL purposes, one AR lower with an SBR stamp, one pistol lower with a brace. Just don't use the vertical front grip when it is on the pistol lower.

Or take the grip off when in pistol mode.

Per ATF v. Thompson Center, you can go from a pistol to a rifle, and back to a pistol, if the lower was first a pistol. So you can put an upper with a 16" barrel and vertical foregrip on the "pistol" lower and then put a stock on it, and it is a rifle, not an AOW or an SBR.

It is all silly and stupid. The law and regs define a handgun as a firearm without a stock, meant to be shot with one hand, not two, but who shoots an AR "pistol" with one hand?? Nobody. You can, but nobody does, not even with a brace. You can shoot a rifle or shotgun with one hand too - but nobody does.

I expect that someday - maybe when Biden or somebody like him gets to be POTUS, that they will ask the ATF to makeup some decision/rule/reg/interpretation regarding AR "pistols", that they really aren't pistols - especially if they have a "brace", that they are SBRs. Ditto with Shockwaves - that they are actually SBSs.

They didn't it with bumpstocks, it would be even easier with AR/AK pistols and Shockwave type "firearms", and the SCOTUS would back them up on it, just like they did with bumpstocks.