AR-15 rear mounted pistol grip idea...

[arakboss]

I think all AR15s were designed to shoot one handed.

 

[red442joe]

I agree about your statement… pistol is for shooting with one hand according to the government.

Buttstock with a rifled bore? RIFLE. Buttstock with a smooth bore? SHOTGUN. Designed to be fired with one hand? PISTOL. Not in one of those categories? AOW.

And remember, once a rifle or a shotgun, always a rifle or a shotgun.* Meaning you can't turn your AR15 rifle into a pistol (no stock) with a short barrel (less than 16″ long). You will need to register it as SBR, whether or not it has a stock or not.

*Pistols that started life as a pistol, can be turned into a rifle and back to a pistol as long as the rules of the NFA are followed

Good asterisk.

Joe

 

[AK0perator47]

If it designed to be fired with two hands and is over 26 inches in OAL it will be a "Firearm" and no longer subject to AOW restrictions. Exception to that rule would be if there was evidence that the firearm was concealed.

Ummm nope. Here's some examples of AR15 pistols or pistol carbines that are under or over the 26" statement.



One is a BCM that is over the 26" length and is classified as a pistol. The other one is a CZ Bren 2 but classified as a pistol. However, put a vertical grip on either one and they are then classified as AOW because no stock and no longer one handed to shoot.

Now if you really want to get technical and have fun.


Definition of a firearm! A case that was dismissed in a court; RECENTLY; is the one about Joshua Roh and here's what it said.

The Curious Case of Joseph Roh

Much has been made on the internet in recent days about an ATF decision to defer prosecution against one Joseph Roh. But who is Joseph Roh? Why does his deferred prosecution matter? Did the ATF actually shake federal gun law to its core? To answer that question immediately - kindof.

www.thefirearmblog.com

So by definition an AR technically is not a firearm. If they ruled in favor of "they who shall not be named ", it changes ALL laws and regulations. Also would have to retry multiple cases of current criminals.

 

[CamoDeafie]

Ummm nope. Here's some examples of AR15 pistols or pistol carbines that are under or over the 26" statement.

View attachment 1131346
View attachment 1131347
One is a BCM that is over the 26" length and is classified as a pistol. The other one is a CZ Bren 2 but classified as a pistol. However, put a vertical grip on either one and they are then classified as AOW because no stock and no longer one handed to shoot.

Now if you really want to get technical and have fun.

View attachment 1131348
Definition of a firearm! A case that was dismissed in a court; RECENTLY; is the one about Joshua Roh and here's what it said.

The Curious Case of Joseph Roh

Much has been made on the internet in recent days about an ATF decision to defer prosecution against one Joseph Roh. But who is Joseph Roh? Why does his deferred prosecution matter? Did the ATF actually shake federal gun law to its core? To answer that question immediately - kindof.

www.thefirearmblog.com

So by definition an AR technically is not a firearm. If they ruled in favor of "they who shall not be named ", it changes ALL laws and regulations. Also would have to retry multiple cases of current criminals.

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term "Any Other Weapon" means:

• Any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive;
• A pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell;
• Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading; and
  
• Any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire.

Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition.

Firearms - Guides - Importation & Verification of Firearms - National Firearms Act Definitions - Any Other Weapon | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Previous Page Download this Section Download the Guidebook Next Page Firearms Verification National Firearms Act Definitions Any Other Weapon 26 U.S.C.

www.atf.gov

And then from https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firear...on-firearms-gun-control-act-definition-pistol

The term "Pistol" means a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having:

• a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s);
• and a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s).

but.. https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg...l/USCODE-2012-title18-partI-chap44-sec921.htm

(8) The term "short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.


ATF have held that if a weapon is under 26 inches, it is "concealable" for the AOW definition..
But if the weapon is made from a "rifle" it becomes a SBR if under 26" OAL; nothing relating pistols/handguns maximum OAL.

The whole argument is that if a firearm is "over 26 inches OAL; but did not start as either a shotgun, or a rifle"; then it cannot be an "AOW" although there is literally nothing in the AOW definition that says the AOW must start out as a pistol/handgun... unless it has a smoothbore or made to fire shotgun shells.

The first definition for AOW is that it must be "concealable"; whether by appearance (cane gun, card gun, wallet gun) or by size (under 26" OAL in other documentation).. but it also does not apply to rifled barreled weapons known as handguns/pistols... however it is entirely possible that even if the firearm is "over 26" OAL with no shoulder stock" ;if it is on paper/documents that its a "pistol/handgun" then it could still be arbritarily defined as an AOW/SBR

 

[AK0perator47]

yep I am aware of the laws and agree with the caveat that the length is one issue and why it took place is because of the coyote getters and the mob in most major cities. As soon as the vertical grip is put on then it is not a SBR because of no stock, not a pistol because it can be fired with two hands. However it is over 26" oal in the example in the BCM AR pistol. Therefore even though they have the rule of under 26"OAL it's still NOT a pistol. Which means AOW. If they were smart enough to make any sense then they would introduce a separate category and call it AOWPS. Any Other Weapon Pistol Style or just drop the S. Regardless like I said look at the Joshua Roh case.

 

[CamoDeafie]

yep I am aware of the laws and agree with the caveat that the length is one issue and why it took place is because of the coyote getters and the mob in most major cities. As soon as the vertical grip is put on then it is not a SBR because of no stock, not a pistol because it can be fired with two hands. However it is over 26" oal in the example in the BCM AR pistol. Therefore even though they have the rule of under 26"OAL it's still NOT a pistol. Which means AOW. If they were smart enough to make any sense then they would introduce a separate category and call it AOWPS. Any Other Weapon Pistol Style or just drop the S. Regardless like I said look at the Joshua Roh case.

Or.. "Assault Weapons/,Assault styled weapons" and by name put ",all AR types that do not fit SBR/AOW/handgun definitions" and all "semiautomatic rifles with capacity to accept large magazines, or able to be modified to accept large magazines" (this would include SKS but exclude M1 Garand and BAR hunting rifles)

 

[arakboss]

..

Ummm nope. Here's some examples of AR15 pistols or pistol carbines that are under or over the 26" statement.

View attachment 1131346
View attachment 1131347
One is a BCM that is over the 26" length and is classified as a pistol. The other one is a CZ Bren 2 but classified as a pistol. However, put a vertical grip on either one and they are then classified as AOW because no stock and no longer one handed to shoot.

Now if you really want to get technical and have fun.

View attachment 1131348
Definition of a firearm! A case that was dismissed in a court; RECENTLY; is the one about Joshua Roh and here's what it said.

The Curious Case of Joseph Roh

Much has been made on the internet in recent days about an ATF decision to defer prosecution against one Joseph Roh. But who is Joseph Roh? Why does his deferred prosecution matter? Did the ATF actually shake federal gun law to its core? To answer that question immediately - kindof.

www.thefirearmblog.com

So by definition an AR technically is not a firearm. If they ruled in favor of "they who shall not be named ", it changes ALL laws and regulations. Also would have to retry multiple cases of current criminals.

I think we are in agreement here.

 

[arakboss]

yep I am aware of the laws and agree with the caveat that the length is one issue and why it took place is because of the coyote getters and the mob in most major cities. As soon as the vertical grip is put on then it is not a SBR because of no stock, not a pistol because it can be fired with two hands. However it is over 26" oal in the example in the BCM AR pistol. Therefore even though they have the rule of under 26"OAL it's still NOT a pistol. Which means AOW. If they were smart enough to make any sense then they would introduce a separate category and call it AOWPS. Any Other Weapon Pistol Style or just drop the S. Regardless like I said look at the Joshua Roh case.

My understanding would be, that if you added a 2nd grip to the BCM AR Pistol that is over 26 inches in OAL it would be a "Firearm" not an AOW?

 

[arakboss]

Would this be legal if i drilled and tapped a screw into the lower rear flat surface on a standard carbine buffer tube for my 10.5" 300 blk pistol?

View attachment 1131022

My PAR8015 shares some attributes with @matts idea.



Edit: This thing actually felt pretty good (not joking) when it incidentally bumped my shoulder. I think @matts grip idea is a good one.

 

[matts]

My PAR8015 shares some attributes with @matts idea.

View attachment 1131372

Edit: This thing actually felt pretty good (not joking) when it incidentally bumped my shoulder. I think @matts grip idea is a good one.

That thing is sick bro!!

 

[bradsteen]

Just watch - someone's gonna come out with a universal pistol holster that fits under the buffer tube of an AR pistol.

 

[CountryGent]

My PAR8015 shares some attributes with @matts idea.

View attachment 1131372

Edit: This thing actually felt pretty good (not joking) when it incidentally bumped my shoulder. I think @matts grip idea is a good one.

Would that, perchance, have started life as an AR handgun? If so, considering the vertical grip, one might want to check out this.

 

[matts]

Regarding my original 'idea'
[But its a vertical "rear" grip which came off a rifle...]
i know, i know, dont tempt the guberment...

 

[matts]

The idea seems to be that "if the second vertical grip isn't under the barrel, is it safe from ATF calling it an AOW?" Short answer, nope based purely on the fact that its got two vertical grips on a pistol if under 26 OAL .

Ok ok, im not doing it guys

 

[arakboss]

Would that, perchance, have started life as an AR handgun? If so, considering the vertical grip, one might want to check out this.

It's a rifle with a stock, mocked up, that resembles a pistol frame.