After Altercation, Philadelphia Police Won't Look the Other Way on Open-Carry

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"How many times does a convenience store need to be robbed to be justified in putting up a security system?" he said.
How many times is a convenience store robbed by law-abiding gun owners?

Garbage!!



After Altercation, Philadelphia Police Say They Won't Look the Other Way on Open-Carry Gun Owners - FoxNews.com

With a shocking altercation between Philadelphia police and a 25-year-old IT worker putting the spotlight back on open-carry gun laws, local authorities are warning gun owners that they will be "inconvenienced" if they carry unconcealed handguns in the city.
Lt. Raymond Evers, a spokesman for the city police, told FoxNews.com that gun owners who open carry, which is legal in the city, may be asked to lay on the ground until officers feel safe while they check permits.
"Philadelphia, in certain areas, is very dangerous," he said. "There's a lot of gun violence." Several officers have been killed in the line of duty in the past three years, local authorities say.
The warning comes after Mark Fiorino, a suburban Philadelphia IT worker, posted an audiotape to YouTube of his tense, 45-minute encounter with police in February over his exposed handgun. The video went viral and captured national attention.
After Fiorino released the audiotape, he was charged with disorderly conduct and reckless endangerment. He now faces up to two years in prison.


"The police department and assistant district attorney are coming after me, in my opinion, to make an example of me because I stood up to them and exposed them for their lack of knowledge," Fiorino said, who called the trial "absolutely inappropriate and a waste of taxpayer money."
Fiorino said he did nothing reckless, nor did he endanger anyone's life.
"I had a gun pointed at my chest," he said.
Only seven states ban the practice of openly carrying guns, and Pennsylvania isn't one of them, according to OpenCarry.org, which advocates gun rights. In Philadelphia, a permit is required to carry handguns openly. But on Feb. 13 a police sergeant who was unaware of the law -- which dates back to at least 1996 when the state Supreme Court referenced it in an unrelated ruling -- stopped Fiorino, who was walking to an auto parts shop in Northeast Philadelphia with a gun on his hip.
Sgt. Michael Dougherty can be heard yelling out to Fiorino as "Junior," and asking him to show his hands as Fiorino protests having a gun pointed at his chest, prompting Dougherty to call for backup.
Dougherty grows increasingly agitated as Fiorino offers to show his permit when he is ordered to get on his knees, causing Dougherty to threaten to shoot if he makes a move. Dougherty then unleashed a string of profanities as the two argued over the legality of open carry.
"Do you know you can't openly carry here in Philadelphia?" Dougherty yells.
"Yes, you can, if you have a license to carry firearms," Fiorino responds."It's Directive 137. It's your own internal directive."
When several other officers arrive, Fiorino is forced to the ground as he tries to explain that he's not breaking the law.
"Shut the f---- up!" Dougherty yells.
Police found the recorder while searching Fiorino's pockets. Officers eventually released him after speaking to the department's lawyer and being told that he was within his legal rights.
Police Commissioner Charles Ramsey took issue with Dougherty's language and his lack of knowledge about the law during the altercation, Evers said, but not with the stop itself.
Evers, who has been an officer for nearly 20 years, said "very rarely do people open carry in Philadelphia." But he added he wasn't make excuses.
"We weren't as up on that crime code as we should have been," he said, adding that officers are being re-educated on open carry in response to the incident.
Dougherty is facing disciplinary action pending the outcome of an internal affairs investigation, Evers said.
Fiorino's trial is scheduled to begin in July and the district attorney's office emphasizes that Fiorino's response to the police, not his gun rights, are at issue.
"This office respects and upholds the rights of a citizen to lawfully carry a firearm," Tasha Jamerson, a spokeswoman for the district attorney's office, said in a statement emailed to FoxNews.com. "The permit to carry a concealed weapon, however, does not mean that a permitholder can abuse that right by refusing to cooperate with police."
Jamerson said Fiorino "allegedly became belligerent and hostile" when police officers "were legally attempting to investigate a potential crime."
But Fiorino's attorney, Joseph Valvo, said the case is larger than Fiorino.
"It's my position that this entire prosecution is an effort by Philadelphia authorities to send a message to legitimate gun owners that open carry as a practice is not welcome in Philadelphia despite the fact that it's constitutionally protected behavior and that's offensive to me as a citizen and as a lawyer," Valvo said.
Gun rights advocates say they're are also offended.
John Pierce, a co-founder of OpenCarry.org said, Philadelphia police have sent a clear message to gun owners that will chill their rights to openly carry.
"Even if it's legal, we can punish you financially and by disruptions in your life," he said.
But the district attorney's office dismissed as "ludicrous" claims it is seeking retaliation or trying to send a message.
"This office only charges people with offenses that we think we can prosecute," Jamerson said in an interview with FoxNews.com. "We just don't willy-nilly charge a person with a crime as retaliation for an incident."
The February incident wasn't the first time Philadelphia police officers have confronted Fiorino about his unconcealed gun. Since July, he has been stopped twice and he has had an audio recorder on him each time in case a cop is having a bad day or doesn't understand the law, he said.
His handgun was confiscated once for five months, but neither occasion escalated like the third encounter.
Fiorino said he studied Pennsylvania law for a year before he started openly carrying a gun. He said he carries the gun openly because some of his friends have been held up at gunpoint and he's not willing to allow himself to be helpless.
Police spokesman Evers said Fiorino appears to be inviting trouble from the law by "surreptitiously" recording his encounters with police.
"If you put everything together, it was more than him walking down the street to go to an auto parts store -- without a jacket in the middle of winter," Evers said.
But Fiorino denies that he was looking for trouble.
"How many times does a convenience store need to be robbed to be justified in putting up a security system?" he said.


Read more: After Altercation, Philadelphia Police Say They Won't Look the Other Way on Open-Carry Gun Owners - FoxNews.com
 

jvbutter

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So basically the govt has a never ending pocket of money and all there goverment services at there disposal. So they will bully and torment any one that opne carrys in the state. I also think the statment
"Philadelphia, in certain areas, is very dangerous," he said. "There's a lot of gun violence." Several officers have been killed in the line of duty in the past three years, local authorities say.
is utter BS, while true parts are dangerous, and I have never seen a picture of Mark the IT worker in question, most cops will tell you they can look at 20 people walking down the road, driving a car and tell you who is good and who is bad... I think this is classic case of officer trying to flex a little muscle and when he realized someone knows more than he, he gets pissed and calls for backup to "back up" his interpretation of the law.
 
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I would have to agree with you Butter,on some of this,but it seems the "Open Carry" guys all across the nation (ie the guy in california open carrying a unloaded gun) are looking more for confrontation than actual recognition for the OC cause.

These types of incidents where the OCer doesn't just do what he is told by the cops and starts arguing instead,just makes all gun owners look stupid.

CARRY A COPY OF THE LAW next to your gun or wallet and give it to the cop AFTER doing as he asks.
Make gun owners look intelligent instead of like a bunch of cowboys.

I do agree the LEOs need more education on this.And so do the OCers in violent cities.

Personally,I believe we should have the right to open carry,but it doesn't give you any tactical advantage at all.

If I'm gunna rob a store at gun point,who am I going to target first?
The off duty lieutenant that is smart enough to conceal his carry gun?
Or the OCer that I can clearly see is a threat?

This is BS on both parts.The guy obviously is looking for confrontation and hit on YouTube
And the police department needs some classes.

Cowboy up and have a good night
 
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You must not have ever seen the recording!! The office was the one being belligerent, not Mark. Mark was saying yes sir and being courteous to the officer, the office was the one using the profanity and yelling even as Mark followed the officers directions to the letter. And it was only AFTER the tapes were put on YouTube that Mark was charged and after the police chief admitted the officer was wrong.

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let's turn this around... suppose you are a CC person and in getting out of your car you happen to flash your pistol. Someone sees the pistol and calls 911. Even though you have a CC permit, the cop does as this cop does and calls for backup, you get cuffed and proned all while making it known that you have a CC permit. Does the cop care? **** no, all he knows it that your are in a bad area of town and you have a gun.

If you are a cop, you need to know the laws you are suppose to be enforcing. I had an issue with a Federal Way cop who did a felony stop on me after he saw me with my firearm at a parking garage. Turns out he was a transplant from Texas and I had to school him on OC in Washington and its gun laws.
 

jvbutter

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its funny I have been stopped before, the cop thought i was in the wrong, so he called for backup to verify if he was correct.. they discussed and I was allowed to motor on... I'm guessing he was wrong. I was perfectly happy with the process and result.

with all the laws on the books, I would expect they know those that are directly related to there type of patrolling... I don't think they can know everything, but sure as damm well better ask before going ballistic on a citizen.
 
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Rights are like muscle - don't exercise them and they atrophy. If more philadelphians exercised their right to open carry, everyone would be educated on the subject, and this type of misunderstanding wouldn't occur. The right to open carry is disappearing because people are allowing themselves to be bullied out if it.
 

jvbutter

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Sasuqatch... I agree its like the bully on school campus... as long as he flexes muscle and intimidates you or scares you, everyone will give up there lunch money... but when enough of the kids stop caving to him, he relaxes. I think the philli cops would do the same if enough citizens started taking up action against them.
 
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Rights are like muscle - don't exercise them and they atrophy. If more philadelphians exercised their right to open carry, everyone would be educated on the subject, and this type of misunderstanding wouldn't occur. The right to open carry is disappearing because people are allowing themselves to be bullied out if it.
People aren't open carrying because they know that there isn't any advantage to it over concealed carry.
Because people got away from the "Cowboy" mentality and want to live their lives WITHOUT conflict,which OC can bring.

Why OC when you can just go about your day without anybody,including the LEOs even knowing you have a gun?
In the old days,it would deter a criminal,today it will make you the first victim.
Even the LEOs that do know the law,know better than to OC.

Has less to do with being 'Bullied out of it" than just not wanting to be in the spot light.

How come most every story in the news about an OCer being confronted by the police,there is a video involved?
It just seems that most are ready for a law suit rather than anything to do with someones rights being bullied away.

Do something positive for our gun rights instead of just making a youtube video of your little OC walk about.
 
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People aren't open carrying because they know that there isn't any advantage to it over concealed carry.
Because people got away from the "Cowboy" mentality and want to live their lives WITHOUT conflict,which OC can bring.

Why OC when you can just go about your day without anybody,including the LEOs even knowing you have a gun?
In the old days,it would deter a criminal,today it will make you the first victim.
Even the LEOs that do know the law,know better than to OC.

Has less to do with being 'Bullied out of it" than just not wanting to be in the spot light.

How come most every story in the news about an OCer being confronted by the police,there is a video involved?
It just seems that most are ready for a law suit rather than anything to do with someones rights being bullied away.

Do something positive for our gun rights instead of just making a youtube video of your little OC walk about.
"People aren't open carrying because they know that there isn't any advantage to it over concealed carry.
Because people got away from the "Cowboy" mentality and want to live their lives WITHOUT conflict,which OC can bring. Why OC when you can just go about your day without anybody,including the LEOs even knowing you have a gun?"

Sometimes you have to wear your freedoms and rights on your sleeve and not just hide them under your shirt like a criminal. A freedom is not a freedom if you have to hide it, try thinking as a free American and less as a coward that fears conflict.

You ask "How come most every story in the news about an OCer being confronted by the police,there is a video involved?". how about, that is the only time it can hold up to the leftest press as they are unable to sweep it under the carpet.

"In the old days,it would deter a criminal,today it will make you the first victim.", The entire state of Florida has proven you wrong and if they don't, I will.. Go ahead, reach for my gun and make me a victim... I would like to see that (That is my Cowboy talking, want to take the challenge?)

"Even the LEOs that do know the law,know better than to OC." This is pure Bullbubblegum, 95% of all LEO's are OC for all of the reasons that you try and argue..

"Has less to do with being 'Bullied out of it" than just not wanting to be in the spot light." Again, more bullbubblegum.... A constitutional right is a constitutional right and if you are not man enough to stand up for your 2nd amendment as much as you are will to spout off your 1st, maybe you should put your gun back under your pillow...

"Do something positive for our gun rights instead of just making a youtube video of your little OC walk about." So, what positive actions have you taken to retain your gun rights? Looking at the majority of your posts, I would say all spout and nothing else..

It is people like you that will allow the 2nd amendment rights to disappear due to your lack of balls to stand up for them and loose lips to talk against them. Wow, you are so not the poster boy for 2nd Amendment rights. So, maybe you should "do something positive", you could always start by not talking about stuff you have no clue about or are uncomfortable being involved with and let the rest of us keep your rights in place.

and what cracks me up even more is your previous posts, ones that are in conflict with others. A great example is this quote from today "First,I live in an open carry state and if I do feel the need to carry,I don't much care about printing." What is the difference between obvious printing and OC? Not a dam thing, this is for sure...

Thank you and have a nice day...
 
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Do something positive for our gun rights instead of just making a youtube video of your little OC walk about.
Something positive like.... attending city & county council meetings or the many letters written to representatives, council members & businesses?
or the group of OC'ers & CC'ers who went to the Washington State capitol to let our representative know that we did not want an assault weapons ban.
or maybe the bunch of OC & CC folks who got together to let Seattle know that their proposed Parks gun ban was illegal.
or maybe the bunch of OC folks that went against the city of Spokane and held a family BBQ against their illegal ban on guns in their parks
or maybe the bunch of OC folks that went against Kitsap County and their illegal ban on guns in the parks
or maybe, you mean like a black man carrying an AR-15 at a rally in Arizona? yeah that went bad for Arizona now they have Constitutional carry...

or maybe the many OC folks that have pushed the issue so that you can CC comfortably

What positive thing have you done for gun rights????
 

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