A little rant about Manuals

[wingspar]

Like Mark, I have well over 40 years of reloading experience. I am also a NRA reloading instructor. The basic reloading class that the NRA prescribes is eight hours in length, and that is enough to get you familiar with the basics of reloading. Just about everything you read about here and on other forums is experience gained by the various individuals, and can be valuable. BUT, as we teach in the class, it is a good idea to get more than one reloading manual, as the information offered can be varied while still being applicable. If you're starting out on this enjoyable past time, then try to keep things as simple as possible. I'm not hawking taking a class, as when I first started out I had very little instruction and a whole lot of questions. Have had a few missteps along the way, but I still have all my digits and have not damaged or destroyed any firearms. You will find some powder. Just keep an eye out. Incidentally, my avatar is exactly what you are looking to reload for. M28 S&W .357 Mag and a 1911 .45 Automatic. Both pretty easy to master.

I have two reloading manuals, the 49th Edition of the Lyman Manual, and the One Book/One Caliber for .357, which is sitting at the Post Office. I'll pick it up tomorrow. It's very likely I'll end up with another manual, particularly one for the bullets I'll use.

There is a ton of good info out there on YouTube and in the forums. I've learned so much, but I'm sure I'll have more questions and things to learn once I actually start reloading. I live way to remote from any population centers to take any classes.

I have a S&W Model 19 in .357 and plan on adding a Ruger Blackhawk in .357. Once I have some time reloading under my belt, the .45 ACP is the next cartridge I want to start reloading. I have a Sig P220 and a 1911, which I like to shoot too much to shoot expensive factory ammo, so loading .45 ACP makes sense. It also got me to thinking about adding a .45 ACP carbine to my collection. When will it ever stop.

 

[10 Spot Terminator]

That is exactly what I was thinking. For a FP or RT at 158 grains and an HP to be 158 grains, it would seem that the HP would have to be longer due to the construction of the HP, therefore, the HP bullet would seat deeper into the case resulting in different pressures.

Most, if not all load data I've seen is for HP's and Cast bullets, and I just found an excellent source for jacketed HP's, so I may just go that route. It does make me wonder about accuracy of an HP vs non HP bullets at distance?

A chronograph may be in the future for me. Specially after I have some reloading under my belt, and I want to try and get max velocity out of the .357 for the rifle.

In mine as well as many others who have wrang out a lot of varying styles of bullets in load developement , it just seems to be the marriage of all the little details that tends to matter in the end when refering to the most accurate handgun loads . I personally have a higher percentage of very accurate hollowpoints in the heavy weight range that excell at ranges of 50 yards or more but with one full roundnose that is the most accurate of all . I also in the lighter grain weights have some semi wadcutter style bullets of a truncated cone style bullet that shoots the socks of my other loads . I have some quite decent semi wadcutter loads which are the more universal choice for all round performance between target , hunting and self defense and not such a specific purpose load as the others . Point to note these are all cast loads and I have only once been able to achieve great results in a jacket bullet but will admit I gave up loading them years before many companies such as Berrys and others arrived on the scene and made more user friendly plated and jacketed bullets .

10 Spot

 

[wingspar]

Well, I'm not an 1/4-inch or even a 1-inch MOA type of shooter, so I may not be as critical on accuracy as some may be. If I can get them all in a 2-inch circle at 50 yards with iron sights, I'd be tickled pink. Sounds like I would be happy with FMJ or HP's. The offerings of bullets is quite extensive. I've found a good lead on some jacketed HP's, and that may just be what I end up with. I normally think of HP's as expensive SD ammo, but maybe it has another role in the reloading world?

If I'm successful loading .357 and continue on with .45 ACP, I could even look at plated bullets, as I would never exceed the fps of plated bullets with .45 ACP like I could with .357.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

this is the load info from my nosler manual #7 it shows the tested oacl at the top. hope this helps

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

sorry the picture uploaded sideways

 

[noylj]

The COL in the manual is the maximum SAAMI COL--which is either the maximum COL that can be chambered safety or, most likely, the maximum COL allowed for industry testing (which is pretty much the minimum COL that a reloader should use as testing is meant to be worst case and not a recommendation for loading) and has nothing to do with the proper COL.
Part of being a HANDLOADER is finding the best COL for your gun, and not just using some minimum COL that might work in most guns.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

i agree. the maximum saami col is more or less the maximum length they feel is safe for a wide variety of firearms. as a reloader i reload for they joy of reloading, being able to have ammo available, and making the most accurate bullet my rifle is going to shoot. most of the high accuracy/consistancy comes from the COL. i enjoy the trial and re-trial. for each of my rifles there is a sweet spot for that COL that i find.

The COL in the manual is the maximum SAAMI COL--which is either the maximum COL that can be chambered safety or, most likely, the maximum COL allowed for industry testing (which is pretty much the minimum COL that a reloader should use as testing is meant to be worst case and not a recommendation for loading) and has nothing to do with the proper COL.
Part of being a HANDLOADER is finding the best COL for your gun, and not just using some minimum COL that might work in most guns.

agrr

 

[noylj]

v0lcom13sn0w:
Maybe you are agreeing, but to try to be clear, the SAAMI maximum is either (1) the maximum ammunition length for the industry only for safe chambering or (2) is a very short length used for testing only--i.e., the length is short to ensure a worst case test so regular ammunition, with a longer COL, will be safe--and the two COLs are NOT the same. They make it VERY clear that their test requirements are NOT applicable to ammunition manufacture or reloading but ONLY for controlled test conditions.
Many reloaders, and particularly extreme accuracy rifle shooters of single-shot rifles, will regularly exceed even the SAAMI max COL for ammunition manufacture as the distance to the lede/rifling is critical for optimum accuracy and their chambers are almost always not even SAAMI compliant.
You can take a conical ogive bullet with point meplat and easily and safely exceed the max SAAMI COL, provided you load singly or the magazine will fit the round anyway.
COL is entirely controlled by the bullet, the gun, the chamber, and the reloader.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

all of my 308 rounds exceed max saami spec. they can only be shot in my rifle also.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

from what i understand is that saami max COL is basically a safe COL for use in a wide variety of firearms. i.e. if i were loading 308 win for a few of my buddys rifles i would full length size, trim,deburr and chamfer the cases to spec then prime , powder and seat bullets to NO longer than maximum saami spec. i determine my COL for my rifles per nosler #7 reloading manual page 67 by taking a fired, un resized piece of brass and put a small dent in the case mouth just so it will have some ability to hold a bullet. next i take a felt tip pen and color one projectile chamber it in my rifle,remove and then measure the entire cartridge by removing the bullet and referencing the scrape marks on the bullet and reinstalling it into the case then measure with my vernier caliper.repeat 3-4 times to establish an average then seat the bullet .015" shorter than my average. this is the COL for my rifle. this decreases the distance the bullet has to travel from chamber to rifling. if im thinking right saami max col for 308 win is 2.810". i load mine at 2.895" col.

 

[Velzey]

And this is why I have reloading manuals going back 50 years!

 

[deadshot2]

BUT, as we teach in the class, it is a good idea to get more than one reloading manual, as the information offered can be varied while still being applicable.

Might be time better spent teaching the students how to work up their loads using information from the powder manufacturers as well as time honored tools such as a "ladder test". Even the newer OCW method by Dan Newberry offers better results than just consulting a manual or six and then trying to figure out which one knows the "secret" for your rifle.

I have yet to find any two manuals agree on the data and worse yet, none of it is applicable to any of my rifles, factory or custom.

To me, it's like teaching a kid in school how to do all his Math on a computer. When they don't have their computer at hand, or the battery is dead, they're lost. Those of us who learned how to use pencil and paper aren't "paralyzed".