National 6 Year old Killed by "unloaded" Gun

[titsonritz]

It's always the "unloaded" ones. Bottom line is they are always loaded, treat them as such.

 

[3MTA3]

I'm not sure where everyone in the gun community gets the idea that because something is negligent or preventable, it's not an accident; and that a negligent discharge is not an accidental discharge. I remember overhearing someone at a range once loudly and angrily insisting that a "negligent discharge IS NOT an accidental discharge". In reality, every dictionary of the English language says otherwise. Just because something was accidental doesn't mean someone wasn't negligent, careless, or just flat out stupid. And... using the excuse that "It was an accident" does not absolve you of guilt, even though my kids seem to think it does somehow...

I am a firm believer that anyone who knows how a firearm operates cannot have an accidental discharge (caveat: if the firearm is not mechanically sound there could be an accident).

One has to actively engage the trigger in order for the firearm to discharge. That is not an accident, that was purposeful.

Also, the Marines have four safety rules, these are what I live by and what I teach my kids. My eight year old can recite these to me, not verbatim, but close enough.
1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded.
2. Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.
3. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
4. Keep the weapon on safe until you intend to fire.
Also, when handing firearms to someone else, we are taught to lock the bolt (or slide) to the rear and visually clear the weapon while verbally saying "clear." Once it has been handed over, the recipient shall duplicate the same process before sending the bolt home. And while no one can be at 100%, 100% of the time, these types of tragedies are so easily preventable.[/QUOTE]

I was taught the exact same protocols by my Dad - he was also a veteran

 

[bbbass]

Fighting over English... the most imprecise language on earth. IMO an "accidental discharge" is an unintended discharge as was listed in the dictionary. It can also be a negligent discharge, but that does NOT mean that it isn't unintended, therefore, accidental. For you specious types, just because the trigger is pulled does NOT mean that the handler intended to discharge a round. LEOs have done just that inside gun shops, did they intend to send that round??? NOOOOOOOOOO! Claiming that they intended to because they weren't careful enough or had a momentary lapse is.... Soooo tired of this argument!!!!

BTW, anyone who doesn't understand what you mean when you instruct them that a gun is always loaded... . Makes me wonder if they really are capable of taking instruction, are they being dense on purpose, or just think they are funny or brainy... at any rate probably immature. However, I am thinking of the old adage "If the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught". Do we need better instructors to fully explain the concepts of firearm safety, or do we have people that see themselves as instructors when they are not? My dad gave me no instruction on anything, yet somehow I learned stuff. Maybe he was a smart dad after all.

 

[CLT65]

I didn't mean to start anything about it. Negligence or negligent accident, "loaded" or "treat as loaded", the result is the same. I think we're all in full agreement here about the important thing: safety at all times.

My kids get the "safety is life" talk literally every time they are around a gun, even my 5yo. I want them to hear my voice inside their heads 50 years from now when they touch a gun. I hope someday they're as adamant about it with their own kids.

 

[bbbass]

I much prefer to say that you need to develop an ingrained habit to treat every gun you touch as if it were loaded

I agree with you. I just wonder... how old was the "girl"? And if older "girl" was she giving you grief or what was her deal? I think if it's a pre-teen then it's a good thing because it opens discussion but coming from a teen or older I would have some concerns.

 

[CLT65]

I agree with you. I just wonder... how old was the "girl"? And if older "girl" was she giving you grief or what was her deal? I think if it's a pre-teen then it's a good thing because it opens discussion but coming from a teen or older I would have some concerns.

No, not at all. This was 20+ years ago and she was in her early 20's. She was actually very safe and respectful. Her question about all guns being loaded was just a matter-of-fact "Why do they say this...". Her name was Tiffany, and it was just a little confusing to her.

As I recall, I told her it was just a way of saying that you always need to handle every gun as if it were loaded, even if it's not. That made sense to her.

 

[stick655]

Fighting over English... the most imprecise language on earth. IMO an "accidental discharge" is an unintended discharge as was listed in the dictionary. It can also be a negligent discharge, but that does NOT mean that it isn't unintended, therefore, accidental. For you specious types, just because the trigger is pulled does NOT mean that the handler intended to discharge a round. LEOs have done just that inside gun shops, did they intend to send that round??? NOOOOOOOOOO! Claiming that they intended to because they weren't careful enough or had a momentary lapse is.... Soooo tired of this argument!!!!

BTW, anyone who doesn't understand what you mean when you instruct them that a gun is always loaded... . Makes me wonder if they really are capable of taking instruction, are they being dense on purpose, or just think they are funny or brainy... at any rate probably immature. However, I am thinking of the old adage "If the student hasn't learned, the teacher hasn't taught". Do we need better instructors to fully explain the concepts of firearm safety, or do we have people that see themselves as instructors when they are not? My dad gave me no instruction on anything, yet somehow I learned stuff. Maybe he was a smart dad after all.

It's semantics, I completely understand that. I also understand that 99.9% of the participants here don't give a rat's @ss either way. We see that a tragic "accident" has happened which will lead to more talk about taking away our rights. My pet peeve, if you will, is that when we put the label of "accident" on something as serious as this, it's almost dismissive. Like, "Oops, my bad!" In my mind, saying that you were negligent puts the onus on you.

I'm not exactly clear what the police in the gun shop example is about, but every time I see something like that on the youtube I just think people like that are double stupid.

I'm not speaking from a high horse or someplace better. Trust me, I screw things up all the time. But you know what? I've never negligently sent a round where I didn't want it to go - knock on wood.

 

[American123]

It's semantics, I completely understand that. I also understand that 99.9% of the participants here don't give a rat's @ss either way. We see that a tragic "accident" has happened which will lead to more talk about taking away our rights. My pet peeve, if you will, is that when we put the label of "accident" on something as serious as this, it's almost dismissive. Like, "Oops, my bad!" In my mind, saying that you were negligent puts the onus on you.

I'm not exactly clear what the police in the gun shop example is about, but every time I see something like that on the youtube I just think people like that are double stupid.

I'm not speaking from a high horse or someplace better. Trust me, I screw things up all the time. But you know what? I've never negligently sent a round where I didn't want it to go - knock on wood.

And if you did, by following the other rules of firearm safety, the negligent round would "go in a safe direction"

 

[bbbass]

My pet peeve, if you will, is that when we put the label of "accident" on something as serious as this, it's almost dismissive.

No, I don't get that impression at all. Children may use "accident" as an excuse... we are not children and I've never seen a normal adult use the term accident that way. I guess there could be low-lifes, morons, idiots, low-class, dumbazz, folks that would, but I'm not exposed to those types. So I a way I suppose you are right but I don't believe that type of thinking generally applies to most folks. Am I wrong? Am I being to generous in my opinion of my fellow man? Certainly none of us HERE would ever act that way... I think, I hope.

I'm not exactly clear what the police in the gun shop example is about, but every time I see something like that on the youtube I just think people like that are double stupid.

Well, I'm personally not in the habit of spending my time watching dumb stuff on YouTube, but my purpose in giving that example was to say that even "trained" people have unintended discharges. I read here that if you pull the trigger, you intended to send a round... it just doesn't hold true. Call them accidents, call them negligent, whatever, but schlitt happens even to good people. My own personal pet peeve is when they then blame the weapon for the AD. But I do get tired of the automatic bashing of other people when the folks doing the bashing weren't there, and display little understanding or compassion. Now, I don't mean that these shooters are not responsible, just that it bothers me when WE get all righteous on them. Like it could never happen to us. I see repeated comments about people that have AD/ND as being morons, idiots, retards, etc, but we would never see ourselves that way if WE someday have an AD/ND. This lack of empathy and savage talk bothers me. Let's not betray our own values and descend into such attacks, eh? It says something about US that has me concerned.

I'm not speaking from a high horse or someplace better. Trust me, I screw things up all the time. But you know what? I've never negligently sent a round where I didn't want it to go - knock on wood.

I have! Once I sent a load of buck thru the roof of a bedroom closet. My ex was hanging out with a bunch of Las Vegas mafia guys and we had an emergency warning that I loaded up the shotty and had it ready for. When the all-clear was given, I unloaded the shotty by cycling it, and in the dark and in my emotional disarray, my finger went into the trigger guard instead of the slide release. I was shocked because I always was highly into firearms safety and (until then) considered myself one of the safest dudes out there. Secondly, I have sent rounds downrange just before getting my sights on the target in action pistol. The problem is that when taking up the trigger slack, it takes very little extra pressure to break the trigger and loose a round. The tension of the action can give a little extra physical energy. This is why we give some folks 12lb DA triggers. So that in an emergency, innocent bystanders do not get shot in a highly charged up self defense situation. In my case, the handgun is pointed very nearly where the round is supposed to go and in a generally safe direction. So, is that safe or unsafe behavior? Well there's always lots of room to criticize. I suppose I am an idiot/moron/doublestupido.

Not saying you are doing this: but I get the distinct impression from some people that they believe an AD/ND cannot happen to them. IMO that type of attitude is an accident waiting to happen. Pride goeth before the fall!

Be safe out there my brothers and sisters!!! May God watch over you and keep you in his hands.

 

[stick655]

No, I don't get that impression at all. Children may use "accident" as an excuse... we are not children and I've never seen a normal adult use the term accident that way. I guess there could be low-lifes, morons, idiots, low-class, dumbazz, folks that would, but I'm not exposed to those types. So I a way I suppose you are right but I don't believe that type of thinking generally applies to most folks. Am I wrong? Am I being to generous in my opinion of my fellow man? Certainly none of us HERE would ever act that way... I think, I hope.

I like to believe this as well. I desperately want to have faith in our species - and then I go out to the Salmonberry shooting area to help with the OHA annual cleanup and holy bubblegum! The amount of disrespect shown to this beautiful state and our beloved hobby/sport/lifestyle was nauseating. I won't go into details as I wrote about it in another thread, but I can honestly say that was the worst public shooting spot that I've ever experienced.

But, it takes all kinds I guess. All we can do is be our best and hope kindness and common sense is infectious.

 

[bbbass]

I like to believe this as well. I desperately want to have faith in our species - and then I go out to the Salmonberry shooting area to help with the OHA annual cleanup and holy bubblegum! The amount of disrespect shown to this beautiful state and our beloved hobby/sport/lifestyle was nauseating. I won't go into details as I wrote about it in another thread, but I can honestly say that was the worst public shooting spot that I've ever experienced.

But, it takes all kinds I guess. All we can do is be our best and hope kindness and common sense is infectious.

Not sure where that is at, but certain parts of the state are worse than others I'm sure. I would like to take pride in E. OR, but we have our share of jerks here too. Tho maybe not quite as many.

I like what you stated about kindness and common sense being infectious, the world could certainly use more of that. I know I need to do my part, especially when faced with dickheads... I don't respond well to dickheads... I think I could do a better job because I'm told they respond better to kindness.

 

[CLT65]

Not saying you are doing this: but I get the distinct impression from some people that they believe an AD/ND cannot happen to them. IMO that type of attitude is an accident waiting to happen. Pride goeth before the fall!

This is true. Don't think it can only happen to the other guy, because he was stupid and careless, and you're not. Always believe that it could happen to you, and act accordingly to make darn sure it doesn't.

 

[bbbass]

This is true. Don't think it can only happen to the other guy, because he was stupid and careless, and you're not. Always believe that it could happen to you, and act accordingly to make darn sure it doesn't.

^^^ This!

 

[olyroller]

This is just pure negligence, there's no other word for it. Can't imagine being that dad. My girls are precious to me, I couldn't live with myself if I was ignorant enough to let something like this happen.

Thoughts and prayers for the family, may God's peace be upon them during this time of sorrow and anguish...

Your quote about abolishing a government and instituting a new government is not from the Constitution. It is from the Declaration of Independence. Just sayin'.

 

[nammac]

Your quote about abolishing a government and instituting a new government is not from the Constitution. It is from the Declaration of Independence. Just sayin'.

Wow, I thought I had corrected that. I have now... Thanks, I never see my signature as it doesn't appear in my postings on my phone. Heck I'm lucky I spelled it all correctly!

 

[olyroller]

Wow, I thought I had corrected that. I have now... Thanks, I never see my signature as it doesn't appear in my postings on my phone. Heck I'm lucky I spelled it all correctly!

Your spelling was perfect.