45 Haters

[pioneer461]

The point really had to do with whether 9mm is truly an effective round. And I simply believe that just because some agencies may choose it for cost reasons is no reason to dismiss the effectiveness of the caliber altogether (I'm not suggesting you are doing so - but others do).

We can disagree, that doesn't bother me, I just wanted to take the opportunity to respond.

Others do, indeed. Even though I'm an old fart, I try to keep up with modern gun technology. About five years ago, I even bought and carry a striker fired pistol. For an old "hammer guy" that was a major leap forward.

It is my experience that 9mm gained a poor reputation, fairly or unfairly, many years ago when the go-to ammo was FMJ NATO. I understand why the military uses FMJ, but many of the civilian / police uses resulted in too many failures to stop. Over the past 20 years or so, there has been a quantum leap in bullet and ammunition design, and manufacturing. The ammo we have available today is light years ahead of what we had way back when. I understand that and believe with modern ammo the 9 mm is just as effective as any other self defense caliber.

I am in no way disparaging modern 9's. When I was a uniformed police officer I carried a S&W model 59 "wonder nine." I carried that for several years until the .40 S&W was developed and approved by my department. (vis-a-vis FBI Miami shootout). I prefer the capacity and performance of the 40, but respect those who choose something else. With modern ammo there is little, if any, difference in performance between them. With modern ammo, even the lowly .380 is now a viable self defense caliber.

In my military years ('65-'69), it was 1911-a1 and M-14. That was it. When I began my police career in 1971, revolvers were king. I carried a S&W mod. 19, .357 magnum with the hollow points du jour, and the thought of carrying a .38 special was abhorrent to me and surely would make me an object of ridicule. Now, in retirement, especially in hot weather, I can often be found with a S&W 642 snubby, loaded with Hornady Critical Defense +P, with two speed-loaders in my cargo pants pocket and I do not feel under gunned at all. Otherwise in cooler weather I might be found carrying one of my .40's, or .45's, with other options available.

I don't carry a 9 mm for the simple fact that I don't own one. If I did, I would. The important thing is to carry something, get proper training, be proficient with your choice, use modern self defense [expensive] carry ammo and practice situational awareness.

United States Constitution​

All Rights Reserved​

 

[etrain16]

Others do, indeed. Even though I'm an old fart, I try to keep up with modern gun technology. About five years ago, I even bought and carry a striker fired pistol. For an old "hammer guy" that was a major leap forward.

It is my experience that 9mm gained a poor reputation, fairly or unfairly, many years ago when the go-to ammo was FMJ NATO. I understand why the military uses FMJ, but many of the civilian / police uses resulted in too many failures to stop. Over the past 20 years or so, there has been a quantum leap in bullet and ammunition design, and manufacturing. The ammo we have available today is light years ahead of what we had way back when. I understand that and believe with modern ammo the 9 mm is just as effective as any other self defense caliber.

I am in no way disparaging modern 9's. When I was a uniformed police officer I carried a S&W model 59 "wonder nine." I carried that for several years until the .40 S&W was developed and approved by my department. (vis-a-vis FBI Miami shootout). I prefer the capacity and performance of the 40, but respect those who choose something else. With modern ammo there is little, if any, difference in performance between them. With modern ammo, even the lowly .380 is now a viable self defense caliber.

In my military years ('65-'69), it was 1911-a1 and M-14. That was it. When I began my police career in 1971, revolvers were king. I carried a S&W mod. 19, .357 magnum with the hollow points du jour, and the thought of carrying a .38 special was abhorrent to me and surely would make me an object of ridicule. Now, in retirement, especially in hot weather, I can often be found with a S&W 642 snubby, loaded with Hornady Critical Defense +P, with two speed-loaders in my cargo pants pocket and I do not feel under gunned at all. Otherwise in cooler weather I might be found carrying one of my .40's, or .45's, with other options available.

I don't carry a 9 mm for the simple fact that I don't own one. If I did, I would. The important thing is to carry something, get proper training, be proficient with your choice, use modern self defense [expensive] carry ammo and practice situational awareness.

United States Constitution​

All Rights Reserved​

I may not be an old fart yet, but I'm getting there

I am one of those that do like the .40, and it doesn't bother me that others don't like it. Fact is that advances in ballistic technology means that the choices in ammo today are far more varied for personal protective rounds than any time in the past. I think it's funny that people even have the argument, but it seems to be something gun people just need to do from time to time.

The good thing is that we can still, in this country, even have this discussion, and that's a good thing

 

[ridurall]

Many of you remember Pinkhamr (Randy Pinkham) He was my best friend and shooting buddy and was the brother I never had. I now carry his 10mm Foster Lower Delta Elite Upper 10mm and it started out of remembrance to him and to honor him. I still feel the same way but I do love this gun and trust my life to it. It has never had a failure to feed or fire and I love it and trust my life to it. The post by Oli700 really settles the argument once and for all. I carried a Kimber Ultra Carry II in .45 for many years but the 10mm is king for me. Randy's 10mm goes everywhere I go and I trust my life to it and it Christ. BTW Randy was saved the weekend he died. I talked to him for years about his faith. Just enough so he wouldn't get mad and toss me out but when it counted he trusted in the Lord.

 

[No_Regerts]

Any of you guys seen the fake ballistic gelatin pic with all of the various wound channels? The one where the temporary wound cavity of the 10mm is a sideways mushroom cloud? I know its fake but it still inspires me

 

[mjbskwim]

Many of you remember Pinkhamr (Randy Pinkham) He was my best friend and shooting buddy and was the brother I never had. I now carry his 10mm Foster Lower Delta Elite Upper 10mm and it started out of remembrance to him and to honor him. I still feel the same way but I do love this gun and trust my life to it. It has never had a failure to feed or fire and I love it and trust my life to it. The post by Oli700 really settles the argument once and for all. I carried a Kimber Ultra Carry II in .45 for many years but the 10mm is king for me. Randy's 10mm goes everywhere I go and I trust my life to it and it Christ. BTW Randy was saved the weekend he died. I talked to him for years about his faith. Just enough so he wouldn't get mad and toss me out but when it counted he trusted in the Lord.

Sounds like a nice gun.
So Randy never got to experience the fairy tail huh?

I'd like a long slide 10mm like the Reeder Ultimate 10
http://reedercustomguns.com/1911/ultimate10.htm

I would like to see one of those. The Fusion brand had quite a bit of controversy to read when you google it. Made it hard to get excited about a 3k gun
I would love a 10mm 1911 long slide.I had the glock but .....it was still just a glock.
Accurate and reliable as heck but no soul like a 1911

 

[oli700]

I'd like a long slide 10mm like the Reeder Ultimate 10
http://reedercustomguns.com/1911/ultimate10.htm

I would live for CZ to bring one out in the SP-01


seriously though I like all the calibers, some are just higher on the list for personal preference .....they're all great, they do it in different ways

 

[oli700]

Any of you guys seen the fake ballistic gelatin pic with all of the various wound channels? The one where the temporary wound cavity of the 10mm is a sideways mushroom cloud? I know its fake but it still inspires me

its on this page at the top

 

[mjbskwim]

I'm lost. What does Case Reeder have to do with Fusion?

As I said i would love to see one of the reeder guns cause the Fusions guns were surrounded with controversy

 

[twowheels]

CZ made a few prototype 97's in 10mm. That would be nice.

 

[Member 3687]

I do not hate the 45 but do not feel it is the end all be all as many do. I have owned more than 15 1911s as well as 5 other types of 45auto in my life time and even shot competition with a 1911 for 6 years but now all I run is 9mm.

My reasons are simple I can get a minimum of 3 boxes of 9mm for the price of 2 boxes of 45 (some time 4 if I find it on sale) and I like to shoot. Until recently only a few 45s held more than 8 rounds and most 9s have been holding 15 to 20 rounds since 1935 starting with the Browning High Power.

With modern powder and bullet design for the 9 mm home defense loads it is just as effective as any other caliber out there.

The 1911 is a good firearm but I am not a fan of guns with hammers or external safeties as they have too many parts to break and fail. I believe in the KISS system (Keep it simple Stupid- KISS) less parts less problems.

But hay we all have opinions based on our experience, training and background and this is mine. You have to make your choice based on your experience.

 

[tac]

Since I live [mostly] in the mainland part of the yUK I have no hat to throw in the ring here. All MY Colt M1911 and 1911A1 are 'safely' out of my reach elsewhere, and I've never seen them again since 1998.

But the very first handgun I ever fired - in fact, the very first FIREARM I ever fired - was my dad's 1915 US Navy issue M1911. He sat me down on the beach, facing the sea, wrapped his paws around mine, and let me crank off seven of those lovely old 230gr hardball rounds into the incoming waves. I'm pleased to relate that every shot was a direct hit.

I was just gone six years old, and I was hooked forever on the slow clanky feel of the M1911, and the way I could just about see it all happening. We had seven of them, including the freaky 'Ace' and a Singer Sewing Machine product that always made me laff.

Later on, we got many more handguns, but none had made such a lasting impression on me as the .45 ACP. When I joined the Army, of course, our issue pistol was the HP35 Browning 9mm - or just the'Browning' as we called it. I rapidly became a master shooter with this little round, and won many comps throughout my entire 33-year Army career. Experience gained the hard way taught me that hitting somebody in face with an issue 124gr FMJ stings just as much as just about anything else, and that getting one through the eyeball can really spoil your day, especially if it was followed up by an instant second one.

It really is academic at the sort of ranges that I was happy to use a handgun - across the width of a car at a traffic lights, for instance, or across a crowded room - which calibre you get hit with - for most folks getting shot with either a 9mm or a .45ACP it's still going to give pause for earnest consideration of what might be coming next - if, of course, the first shot missed the all-important eyeball.

Given the chance to arm myself for self-defence purposes, I remain a staunch supporter of the .45ACP, in a more discreet frame-size, of course. My SIG P220 was a bit of a lump, I have to admit, but I loved it to bits. Modern .45ACP ammunition, designed specifically to dump all its energy in the soft target, is a surefire 'make-you-thinker', and my principal defence handgun would be loaded with as much of it as it could take. I'm getting old now, but I sure would like the chance to get even older - if push came to shove, I'd like to think that a .45 would give me a better chance of doing just that rather than a 9mm.

tac

 

[salmonriverjohn]

Pink hammer was a heck of member that graced these pages with wisdom, humor and wit and in all the years that he did so I don't believe that I ever heard him disparage anyone's ideas, faith or lack thereof. He was a real class act, and I wish that he hadn't been taken.
RIP Randy,, miss you brother,

 

[whiskeybill]

The issue/thing about that old thang is that a 9mm 115 goes 1550. done deal

We all know how subjective muzzle velocities can be to different factors, even the manuals listing the loads. I haven't been able to find any 9mm loads at 1550fps, most max loads being right at 1250 with Blue Dot. It is possible to achieve higher mV with a longer barrel, but this discussion is for handguns, not carbines. Anyway, here is my cipher on some calculations of muzzle energy, comparing the 115 grain 9 to the 230 grain 45, from the Speer #14 manual.

230 Grain 45, BC 0.148 @ 900 fps calculates out to 510 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

115 Grain 9mm, BC 0.125 @ 1,258 fps calculates out to 431 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

Yeah, maybe I'm quibbling here, comparing the lightest of the 9mm bullets to the heaviest of the 45. I haven't factored in the 124 grain or 147 grain 9mm bullets, but I hope you see my drift here. MV is a cool number, but there are other factors to consider.

Further study of the ballistic tables show that bullets of a higher BC have less velocity loss (and thus higher retained energy) than bullets of a lower BC downrange.

Again, I don't want to be shot with anything, ever again. None of the above calculations goes through your head when you're shot. All you can say is "Damn! That HURTS!"

 

[No_Regerts]

You mean the one six posts above yours?

Yeah.....may have missed it before I posted.

 

[Brutus57]

Weren't the Islamic Moros of the PI Mr. Colt's inspiration for the .45 ACP? As in more knockdown power than the pistol rounds in use at the time?
My ex father in law who fought in WWII, Korea, and did two tours in Nam had great forty five stories.

Brutus out

 

[whiskeybill]

Weren't the Islamic Moros of the PI Mr. Colt's inspiration for the .45 ACP? As in more knockdown power than the pistol rounds in use at the time?
My ex father in law who fought in WWII, Korea, and did two tours in Nam had great forty five stories.

Brutus out

Actually, it was Mr. Browning's inspiration. Colt, like Winchester, profited handsomely from Mr. Browning's genius. You are correct about the Moros, though. I have spoken with a good number of SF troops that have returned from Middle East ramblings, and the Somalis, like the Moros of yesteryear, chew a native plant leaf that is quite potent and hallucangenic. This is one reason why the modern soldiers wanted the .45 back in issue. Seems the 9mm just didn't have the poop to stop some hopped up natives. One former Ranger I spoke with carried the FNX .45. Fourteen rounds of stopping power in the grip alone.

 

[jbett98]

Here's a short treatise on the Philippine Insurrection.


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...zCpfiaf4V8rRa6Hjw&sig2=VuaN6g-l0U9kcSY_w-tOaQ

 

[Certaindeaf]

We all know how subjective muzzle velocities can be to different factors, even the manuals listing the loads. I haven't been able to find any 9mm loads at 1550fps, most max loads being right at 1250 with Blue Dot. It is possible to achieve higher mV with a longer barrel, but this discussion is for handguns, not carbines. Anyway, here is my cipher on some calculations of muzzle energy, comparing the 115 grain 9 to the 230 grain 45, from the Speer #14 manual.

230 Grain 45, BC 0.148 @ 900 fps calculates out to 510 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

115 Grain 9mm, BC 0.125 @ 1,258 fps calculates out to 431 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle.

Yeah, maybe I'm quibbling here, comparing the lightest of the 9mm bullets to the heaviest of the 45. I haven't factored in the 124 grain or 147 grain 9mm bullets, but I hope you see my drift here. MV is a cool number, but there are other factors to consider.

Further study of the ballistic tables show that bullets of a higher BC have less velocity loss (and thus higher retained energy) than bullets of a lower BC downrange.

Again, I don't want to be shot with anything, ever again. None of the above calculations goes through your head when you're shot. All you can say is "Damn! That HURTS!"

Ah. The Underwood offering. As tested by Tnoutdoors9 etc. Pretty close to the classic .357 magnum defense load out of a 4" barrel.
And if you want to hot up the round yourself, look up "9mm major".

 

[No_Regerts]

That was then, this is now. If they had Gold Dot 124gr +p back then history would read differently.

God didn't invent that until he realized he needed to save us from our mistake of adopting the M9.

 

[Oregonhunter5]

Maybe we should develop a 9mm double stack 1911.
Imagine the control you'd have. And I also like the 1911 for close quarter head smashing. Great weight mass behind that piece of steal.