45-70 load for deer in Brown Bear central

[osprey]

I got an invite from my Alaskan bro inlaw to go hunt Sitka blacktail amongst some of the largest bears in the world. I am not 100% sure I can swing the trip yet but that has not stopped me from considering what rifle I would bring. The easy choice would be my Kimber 280 ai. The other alternative I am considering is my 45-70 Marlin guide gun. I asked my Bil what the shot distances would be and he said all will be under 250 yds, with the majority under 100yds. This got me thinking I could bring my 45-70. I already have the stomper 420gr hardcast loads developed for it but I would definitely pursue a lighter flatter shooting deer load for it as well. I am mostly considering the Hornady line of bullets including the 300 gr hp, the 350 gr flat nose and the 350 gr round nose. Does anybody have any firsthand experience with any of these bullets on deer size game? I am kind of leaning towards the 350 gr round nose as it sounds like it is the best penetrating of the 3 and might save your bacon with a bear charge. On the flip side I have read it does not expand as well on deer size game as the others. I may try all three and see which one my rifle likes the best. Any input on bullet/load selection is appreciated. This will be for an 18.5" barrel Marlin guide gun. I am hoping to push the bullets to near 2000 fps.

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[DizzyJ]

No idea, but sounds like fun trip!

 

[Roundball58]

I have a limited number of data points for the 45-70 on black bear and deer. I've killed two large (one was really large) black bear with my Marlin using hand loaded Speer 400 gr SP's. Both bear were shot thru both shoulders with complete penetration. When hornady came out with their Lever revolution rounds (325gr ) I popped a couple of mule deer with them, basic lung shots. Again complete penetration with wound channels on a par with my 30-06. Decided to try them on black bear and that's when things got ugly. Hit a large sow in the shoulder at 60 yds. She went down, got back up and started moving off. Second round thru the chest put her down. During skinning, found a completely separated jacket under the hide, a broken shoulder, bullet fragments in the shoulder but no penetration into the chest cavity. The second shot had been a complete pass thru the chest with apparently normal expansion. My guess is they build the light stuff for expansion on deer and not to hold together on heavy bone. If you're concerned about bear, stick with the heavy stuff. Wouldn't worry about expansion on deer as you've already got a .45 caliber hole to start with.

 

[osprey]

Good point Roundball. I have read enough about the ftx bullets that would steer me away from them especially since I would have to shorten my good star brass .060" to use them. That ain't happening! I have plenty of time to prep so I should be able to come up with something that strikes a good balance of expansion and penetration. Thanks for the input. I kind of like the idea of these swift a frames but at $1.30 a pop I think I will pass. I shot a Yukon Moose stern to stem with a 175 gr A frame in 7mm and found it just inside the hide on the chest. Recovered weight was 169.8 gr with textbook expansion.

Swift A-Frame Lever Action Rifle Bullets 45-70 - MPN: 453509

 

[Twodogs]

I've been shooting a 45/70 for a long time and would rather shoot a deer with a bear load than a bear with a deer load,shot a lot of deer with the Hornady 350 gr rn never had one run off but for big bears 420 gr would be my minimum.

 

[osprey]

Thinking about it I would probably keep 420 gr loads in gun and if a longer shot presented itself I would load the lighter deer loads. If no time and closer in I would just let drive with 420 gr.

 

[No_Regerts]

Me thinks most 243s don't expand to .458.

 

[osprey]

The 243 has hydrostatic shock on its side with the high velocity. I have not shot any game with the 45-70 but I have killed several critters with a muzzle loader. Big 50 cal hole in and out but not a lot of hydrostatic shock. I think the heavy hardcast bullets in the 45-70 will be similar to the ML. The deer may go a little ways but it will definitely leak out and die. If big bone is hit a pole axe type reaction can happen.

 

[osprey]

Well I have ordered all three of the Hornady bullets I mentioned so I will develop loads with them and see which one comes out on top.

 

[thorborg]

I've been shooting a 45/70 for a long time and would rather shoot a deer with a bear load than a bear with a deer load,shot a lot of deer with the Hornady 350 gr rn never had one run off but for big bears 420 gr would be my minimum.

This^
(if going with the 45-70) though I have no experience on brown bears
I too have many years of hand loads and rounds of 45-70 to remember. A well paced 45-70 shot on deer won't do any more damage (and maybe less) to deer sized meat than my 270 or 6.5 X 55 as the latter two move so fast they literally puree vital parts under 100 yards (at least with poly tip Nozlers)

 

[osprey]

I know those big 420 gr flat meplat cast bullets will kill, but the deer may go a bit before leaking out. This is my experience with a muzzle loader anyway. My understanding is with lighter expanding bullets and impact velocities above 1600-1700 fps you can consistently get drt type shots on deer using the 45-70. I don't have a lot of desire to go track a bled out deer through the pucky brush considering me being the apex predator may be in question where we will be hunting. We will see what I come up with.

 

[Roundball58]

My understanding is with lighter expanding bullets and impact velocities above 1600-1700 fps you can consistently get drt type shots on deer using the 45-70..

Based on what I've seen with the 325gr LR's I have used on mule deer, DRT is not a given, at least with the typical chest shot. They're still going to move off a bit before they collapse.

 

[KKG]

I would suggest that you use the lightest bullet you can find for the Deer loads. I would have a few heavier loads as Bear insurance. If it takes more than 3 shots to down a Deer then you are doing something very wrong. One of the earlier Marlins should for the bill nicely. Good Luck!

 

[alphapygmy]

I shot 2 blacktail with my 45-70 Guide gun. One with 250 Barnes X running 2400fps at about 20 yards almost broadside. DRT, exited and kept going. The other at 35 yards with a 425gr Beartooth WLN hardcast at 1850fps. It went completely through from near shoulder, through offside ham and then completely through a 10" doug fir and kept going. Never recovered the bullet, deer expired in 2 seconds. It would be my choice for deer and big bear combo under 150 yards.

 

[Ura-Ki]

My .02 worth, what's wrong with the .280a.i?
Bring the marlin as back up and use the A.I.
Even against a big bruin, the right bullet would be up to the job!
I have done the Alaska coastal bear hunts, mostly with a .375 so nothing to worry about, and the cousins i hunted with both used 7mm mags with out any issue! One of our guides had a .270 and swore that it was all he ever needed!
I dont remember ( case of sometimers) but dont you have a .338 win? If ya did, that would be good medicine all around!

 

[orygun]

I like the 45-70 and would load it with a 400+gr bullet.

But I'd take the 280AI. Load it with a Partition (or similar bullet) and go.
The 45-70 would make a good back up gun for a trip like that.

 

[osprey]

Why use the 45-70? I guess the simple answer is because I can. I do still have a 338. I also would not feel under gunned with my 280ai and I still have a box of 175 gr swift a frames I could stoke up. I really want to press the 45-70 into service though. Both my Bil's have hunted extensively in AK and have several enteries into the record books. One has even worked as a guide to one of the famous bear camps on Kodiak. You know what their cartridge of choice is ? Both of them use a 30-06 for everything. So in a nutshell I do have options that may be better but I really want to take the guide gun. We would be flying in on a float plane so I am not sure bringing two rifles would be prudent. I would prefer to save the weight for important things like portable electric fencing around our camp. So far it is just a good excuse to develop some different loads for my guide gun which is a great Winter diversion.

 

[orygun]

Why use the 45-70? I guess the simple answer is because I can. So far it is just a good excuse to develop some different loads for my guide gun which is a great Winter diversion.

Well, why didn't you just come out and say so?!?!?
Eventually I had my Browning throated to allow the Speer 405gr SP to work in the lower cannelure for more powder capacity, but I found the best velocities in that bullet range was RL7. The "long" length cartridge went 2050fps out of a 24" barrel and I wan't yet close to Max, but at the upper limit of what's suitable for an 1895. I believe it's pretty easy to reach those speeds at the normal COL, too. Lyman Manual is where I got me data. @osprey , I can forward data if interested.

 

[osprey]

Rl 7 is what I use for my 420 gr cast loads i worked up to around 1800 fps but the recoil was getting a bit much. For the wfn hardcast that are supposed to penetrate better when driven at more moderate speeds, I backed down until I hit around 1600 fps. My shoulder thanked me. @orygun, absolutely hit me with that data. Always good to have data points with different projectiles. I am guessing your load would clock a snot knocking 1900 fps or so out of my guide gun.

 

[orygun]

I need to dig a little, but I'll find it and send it along.