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- Thread Starter
- #41
Yeah, we're all bubbleguming to get the .45 back.I agree...remember, most military use 9mm in their sidearms too.
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Yeah, we're all bubbleguming to get the .45 back.I agree...remember, most military use 9mm in their sidearms too.
I'm with Mister Ruby. Absolutely no truth to the statement, "They aren't supposed to run at the same pressures." They certainly ARE. The reason the SAAMI specs for .30-06 show lower pressure is because of the older, weaker guns that still exist. There is NO reason the '06 should not be loaded to equal pressures as a .308 in a modern, strong gun.
There actually IS alot of truth to the statement. Read your reloading manuals that actually list the pressure spec. SAAMI spec for the 30-06 is 50,000CUP, or about 60,000PSI. The 308 is a 62,000PSI cartridge. CUP and PSI cannot be directly translated as they are completely different systems. Now CAN you load-up the '06? Well of course you CAN! However by that rationale, since my Savage in 223WSSM, or Browning in 270Win are "modern, strong actions" there should be no reason why I can't rebarrel them, and make ANY cartridge run at the 65,000PSI that those guns operate at, right??
As to the "weaker guns" argument There always will be the proverbial "turd in the punch bowl", But Gen. Julian Hatcher(read Hatcher's Notebook sometime, good info) who ran the Springfield Arsenal; did destructive testing @ WWII on the '03 Springfield in 30-06. His proof loads ran up 110,000CUP with no catastrophic failure of the gun.
The reason that the '06 runs where it does, is a function of design, NOT capabilities of the gun. The 270Win which uses the same case, is a 65,000 PSI, designed in 1925!
Unless we all buy a Pressure Trace, just matching velocities; does NOT mean the same pressures. Without the PT, you don't actually know WHAT pressure you are at; only velocity.
IF you want to hot-rod anything, then great, go ahead; But be honest about it. Tanner Foust's Ralley car is based on a Ford Focus. If you are comparing cars, you can't compare Tanner's rally car with a Lamborghini; only to conclude that ANY focus is equally as powerful as a Lambo....
Spitpatch,
You are missing the point, and you are playing both sides of the argument.
In post #21 YOU said:
"I'm with Mister Ruby. Absolutely no truth to the statement, "They aren't supposed to run at the same pressures." They certainly ARE. The reason the SAAMI specs for .30-06 show lower pressure is because of the older, weaker guns that still exist. There is NO reason the '06 should not be loaded to equal pressures as a .308 in a modern, strong gun." - End Spitpatch quote.
You don't get to say, that they ARE SUPPOSED to be the same pressure... EXCEPT in old guns. --ARE they SUPPOSED to, or AREN'T they SUPPOSED to.
Like I have said all along, They are NOT SUPPOSED to run the same pressure. Whether or not THEY CAN, is an entirely different discussion.
Post #17, I said:
"They aren't supposed to run the same pressures. The difference is 1-200 FPS and 7-10 grains more powder, with a longer barrel.
Unless you are talking technicalities on Match distances, or at the extreme edge of a bullets velocity window; They are the same thing." - End Darkker quote.
--IF you want to discuss modern ACTION strength:
Taking CARTRIDGES beyond the original design and SAAMI max pressures, is hot-rodding the CARTRIDGE.
So just like my last example of the rally cars, lets be fair:
IF you get to bump the 30-06 pressure up a few thousand PSI over spec, Then you ALSO get to bump the pressure of the 308 up a couple thousand over spec. Giving the '06 the benefit of a few thousand extra PSI, BUT NOT the 308 is not a fair comparison of anything.
I know nothing about the Winchester Model 1895's. However I find it interesting that there are several for sale on GunsInternational, chambered in 270Win. If the action is supposed to be not terribly strong, 65,000PSI is not a good choice.
Well, I certainly was not referring to the '03 Springfield that Hatcher COULDN'T blow up as one of the older, weaker guns still around, (The double-heat-treated actions), but I certainly WAS referring (for those who have read his work carefully, and are owners/collectors/shooters of '03's) to the ones he WAS able to blow up. (The early, non-heat-treated, or single-heat-treated actions AND the LATER nickel steel actions). A lot of these are still around.
We must be careful when we brag about our '03 action strength and use General Hatcher as our reference, to correctly represent his findings toward those who might own '03's of the weaker type.
I was also referring to the '95 Winchester as an action that may not be as strong as modern guns (and a double-heat '03). Lots of those still being shot, ammo makers know it, and so SAAMI specs keep the .30-06 tame enough for all these guns. One need not "Hot Rod" an '06 at all to realize much better performance than what is available with a factory load. James cites the 8x57 as another similar example, and the 7x57 can be highlighted here as well. The most glaring example might be the .45-70.
James cites the 8x57 as another similar example, and the 7x57 can be highlighted here as well. The most glaring example might be the .45-70.
SAAMI spec for the 30-06 is 50,000CUP, or about 60,000PSI. The 308 is a 62,000PSI cartridge. CUP and PSI cannot be directly translated as they are completely different systems. Now CAN you load-up the '06? Well of course you CAN! However by that rationale, since my Savage in 223WSSM, or Browning in 270Win are "modern, strong actions" there should be no reason why I can't rebarrel them, and make ANY cartridge run at the 65,000PSI that those guns operate at, right??
The 30-06 has an advantage over the 308 at 1000 yd competition. In service rifle or match rifle. I own and shoot several rifles of each cal.. When shooting at 1000 yds it is imperative to drive the bullet fast enough to keep it from going sub sonic at 1000 yds. After the bullet goes sub sonic accuracy is lost the bullet tumbles. This is accomplished by pushing the 30 cal. 175 Sierra Match King at a 2700 fps at the muzzle. This is easily accomplished with the '06 and over max load on the 308.
Nor have I. I just don't judge a round by if an army uses it.
Still, you do have a point on it must be worth something if it is such a popular round.