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30-06, that's my choice and I'm stickin to it!
With factory ammo up to and including 165/168gr the .308 and 30-06 are equal. If there is a FPS difference, it's not worth noting. Like Spitpatch noted, the 30-06 comes out ahead when the bullet is 180gr or heavier. With handloads you will always be able to make the 06 outrun the 308.

Can you guess I'm a 30-06 fan?:cool: And the only .308 I ever owned I sold to my brother-in-law.

However, like the small block Chevy engine, you would be a fool to say the .308 isn't good. There are better target rounds available for the 308. You can get it in more semi-auto rifles. (I'd still like an AR-10 style gun)

When that brother-in-law and I were talking about elk hunting one year, he said he wouldn't go because he "only" had a .308. I had to disagree.
 
I'm with Mister Ruby. Absolutely no truth to the statement, "They aren't supposed to run at the same pressures." They certainly ARE. The reason the SAAMI specs for .30-06 show lower pressure is because of the older, weaker guns that still exist. There is NO reason the '06 should not be loaded to equal pressures as a .308 in a modern, strong gun.

There actually IS alot of truth to the statement. Read your reloading manuals that actually list the pressure spec. SAAMI spec for the 30-06 is 50,000CUP, or about 60,000PSI. The 308 is a 62,000PSI cartridge. CUP and PSI cannot be directly translated as they are completely different systems. Now CAN you load-up the '06? Well of course you CAN! However by that rationale, since my Savage in 223WSSM, or Browning in 270Win are "modern, strong actions" there should be no reason why I can't rebarrel them, and make ANY cartridge run at the 65,000PSI that those guns operate at, right??

As to the "weaker guns" argument There always will be the proverbial "turd in the punch bowl", But Gen. Julian Hatcher(read Hatcher's Notebook sometime, good info) who ran the Springfield Arsenal; did destructive testing @ WWII on the '03 Springfield in 30-06. His proof loads ran up 110,000CUP with no catastrophic failure of the gun.
The reason that the '06 runs where it does, is a function of design, NOT capabilities of the gun. The 270Win which uses the same case, is a 65,000 PSI, designed in 1925!

Unless we all buy a Pressure Trace, just matching velocities; does NOT mean the same pressures. Without the PT, you don't actually know WHAT pressure you are at; only velocity.

IF you want to hot-rod anything, then great, go ahead; But be honest about it. Tanner Foust's Ralley car is based on a Ford Focus. If you are comparing cars, you can't compare Tanner's rally car with a Lamborghini; only to conclude that ANY focus is equally as powerful as a Lambo....
 
There actually IS alot of truth to the statement. Read your reloading manuals that actually list the pressure spec. SAAMI spec for the 30-06 is 50,000CUP, or about 60,000PSI. The 308 is a 62,000PSI cartridge. CUP and PSI cannot be directly translated as they are completely different systems. Now CAN you load-up the '06? Well of course you CAN! However by that rationale, since my Savage in 223WSSM, or Browning in 270Win are "modern, strong actions" there should be no reason why I can't rebarrel them, and make ANY cartridge run at the 65,000PSI that those guns operate at, right??

As to the "weaker guns" argument There always will be the proverbial "turd in the punch bowl", But Gen. Julian Hatcher(read Hatcher's Notebook sometime, good info) who ran the Springfield Arsenal; did destructive testing @ WWII on the '03 Springfield in 30-06. His proof loads ran up 110,000CUP with no catastrophic failure of the gun.
The reason that the '06 runs where it does, is a function of design, NOT capabilities of the gun. The 270Win which uses the same case, is a 65,000 PSI, designed in 1925!

Unless we all buy a Pressure Trace, just matching velocities; does NOT mean the same pressures. Without the PT, you don't actually know WHAT pressure you are at; only velocity.

IF you want to hot-rod anything, then great, go ahead; But be honest about it. Tanner Foust's Ralley car is based on a Ford Focus. If you are comparing cars, you can't compare Tanner's rally car with a Lamborghini; only to conclude that ANY focus is equally as powerful as a Lambo....

Hatcher has not been around for over 50 years - many things have changed since then when it comes to reloading. In todays sue happy courts there are reasosn why they keep pressures down on the older cartridges - the 8X57 is a perfect example of this. Though I agree caution must be used I feel that the 30-06 has been unfairly kept at low pressures. In a modern gun that is rated at a pressure of 65000 psi there is no reason to keep you loadings below that pressure unless you choose to. A 30-06 at the same pressure as 308 will exceed the performance of the 308. It would be nice to have a presure test but there are signs and methods around that, however I would advise against this if you are a new or inexperienced reloader.

James Ruby
 
James,
That was my point exactly.
As far as which chambering, I have no dog in the fight other than an honest comparison. Compare what IS, to what IS; Not what IS, to what CAN be.

The pressure trace system only costs about the price of a gun.
RSI - PressureTrace

Reading primers for example. While routinely done(myself included), is a rather poor method of indicating actual pressure; much like using uncalibrated copper crushers again.

It is funny how the "times have changed", in the reloading world. Hatcher discusses the French and their work on Tin/Bismuth compounds, to stop copper fouling in the late-1800's early-1900's. This years shot show Hodgdon announced they(who btw manufactures ZERO smokeless powder) brought a totally new, formerly secret military technology(CFE223) to the handloader. 200 year old secret, with 50 year old publicity apparently:s0114:
SMP-846(CFE223) has been openly discussed by General Dynamics(the maker) in their annual reports since 2006; relating to developing the new M855+ round. Their MSDS show the same compounds(albeit perhaps in different quantities) in Win 748 & 760 for the past almost 20 years.
 
Owning both I am on the fence as to which round is better for any one application. A difficult choice to say the least. Rumor has it that in theory the shorter case of the 308 is more likely to provide better accuracy. Maybe so, but the greatest advantage of the 308 is the ability to fit into a short-action rifle. A svelte rifle lends itself to easier handling and action manipulation, even if all else is equal or close enough to equal when comparing ballistics.
 
Well, I certainly was not referring to the '03 Springfield that Hatcher COULDN'T blow up as one of the older, weaker guns still around, (The double-heat-treated actions), but I certainly WAS referring (for those who have read his work carefully, and are owners/collectors/shooters of '03's) to the ones he WAS able to blow up. (The early, non-heat-treated, or single-heat-treated actions AND the LATER nickel steel actions). A lot of these are still around.

We must be careful when we brag about our '03 action strength and use General Hatcher as our reference, to correctly represent his findings toward those who might own '03's of the weaker type.

I was also referring to the '95 Winchester as an action that may not be as strong as modern guns (and a double-heat '03). Lots of those still being shot, ammo makers know it, and so SAAMI specs keep the .30-06 tame enough for all these guns. One need not "Hot Rod" an '06 at all to realize much better performance than what is available with a factory load. James cites the 8x57 as another similar example, and the 7x57 can be highlighted here as well. The most glaring example might be the .45-70.
 
Spitpatch,
You are missing the point, and you are playing both sides of the argument.

In post #21 YOU said:
"I'm with Mister Ruby. Absolutely no truth to the statement, "They aren't supposed to run at the same pressures." They certainly ARE. The reason the SAAMI specs for .30-06 show lower pressure is because of the older, weaker guns that still exist. There is NO reason the '06 should not be loaded to equal pressures as a .308 in a modern, strong gun." - End Spitpatch quote.


You don't get to say, that they ARE SUPPOSED to be the same pressure... EXCEPT in old guns. --ARE they SUPPOSED to, or AREN'T they SUPPOSED to.

Like I have said all along, They are NOT SUPPOSED to run the same pressure. Whether or not THEY CAN, is an entirely different discussion.

Post #17, I said:
"They aren't supposed to run the same pressures. The difference is 1-200 FPS and 7-10 grains more powder, with a longer barrel.
Unless you are talking technicalities on Match distances, or at the extreme edge of a bullets velocity window; They are the same thing." - End Darkker quote.


--IF you want to discuss modern ACTION strength:
Taking CARTRIDGES beyond the original design and SAAMI max pressures, is hot-rodding the CARTRIDGE.

So just like my last example of the rally cars, lets be fair:
IF you get to bump the 30-06 pressure up a few thousand PSI over spec, Then you ALSO get to bump the pressure of the 308 up a couple thousand over spec. Giving the '06 the benefit of a few thousand extra PSI, BUT NOT the 308 is not a fair comparison of anything.



I know nothing about the Winchester Model 1895's. However I find it interesting that there are several for sale on GunsInternational, chambered in 270Win. If the action is supposed to be not terribly strong, 65,000PSI is not a good choice.
 
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Spitpatch,
You are missing the point, and you are playing both sides of the argument.

In post #21 YOU said:
"I'm with Mister Ruby. Absolutely no truth to the statement, "They aren't supposed to run at the same pressures." They certainly ARE. The reason the SAAMI specs for .30-06 show lower pressure is because of the older, weaker guns that still exist. There is NO reason the '06 should not be loaded to equal pressures as a .308 in a modern, strong gun." - End Spitpatch quote.


You don't get to say, that they ARE SUPPOSED to be the same pressure... EXCEPT in old guns. --ARE they SUPPOSED to, or AREN'T they SUPPOSED to.

Like I have said all along, They are NOT SUPPOSED to run the same pressure. Whether or not THEY CAN, is an entirely different discussion.

Post #17, I said:
"They aren't supposed to run the same pressures. The difference is 1-200 FPS and 7-10 grains more powder, with a longer barrel.
Unless you are talking technicalities on Match distances, or at the extreme edge of a bullets velocity window; They are the same thing." - End Darkker quote.


--IF you want to discuss modern ACTION strength:
Taking CARTRIDGES beyond the original design and SAAMI max pressures, is hot-rodding the CARTRIDGE.

So just like my last example of the rally cars, lets be fair:
IF you get to bump the 30-06 pressure up a few thousand PSI over spec, Then you ALSO get to bump the pressure of the 308 up a couple thousand over spec. Giving the '06 the benefit of a few thousand extra PSI, BUT NOT the 308 is not a fair comparison of anything.



I know nothing about the Winchester Model 1895's. However I find it interesting that there are several for sale on GunsInternational, chambered in 270Win. If the action is supposed to be not terribly strong, 65,000PSI is not a good choice.

The point being that you can run them at the same pressure - in the case of the 308 you are already running at pressures that are higher than the 30-06. If a action is suited for 65000PSI there is no reason that both the 30-06 and 308 cant run at that pressure in the same action. You want to run a 308 at 67000PSI in that action because the 30-06 was bumped up to 65000PSI, I question this logic. Yes it is hot rodding but I see nothing happening to the cartridges but down loading them maybe so that they can sell cartridges that run hotter cartridge in the same gun / action. Look at older reloading manuals compared to todays'. Do you really think for example that the A-Bolt or Winchester Model 70 action that they chamber a 300WM in is any stronger than the action they chamber the 30-06 in? I would argue just the oposite but the 300WM operates under higher pressures.

I think this thread is becoming a waste of time.

James Ruby
 
The 30-06 has an advantage over the 308 at 1000 yd competition. In service rifle or match rifle. I own and shoot several rifles of each cal.. When shooting at 1000 yds it is imperative to drive the bullet fast enough to keep it from going sub sonic at 1000 yds. After the bullet goes sub sonic accuracy is lost the bullet tumbles. This is accomplished by pushing the 30 cal. 175 Sierra Match King at a 2700 fps at the muzzle. This is easily accomplished with the '06 and over max load on the 308.
 
WHOLE bunch of info back there!:s0155:

So the ballistics are about the same,there is almost identical number of factory loads for both,there is equal number of guns that can be had in both calibers.

Really only difference is the 308/7.62 NATO comes in more semi auto guns.

So the only question is,do you want your bolt and semi auto in the same caliber?
 
Well, I certainly was not referring to the '03 Springfield that Hatcher COULDN'T blow up as one of the older, weaker guns still around, (The double-heat-treated actions), but I certainly WAS referring (for those who have read his work carefully, and are owners/collectors/shooters of '03's) to the ones he WAS able to blow up. (The early, non-heat-treated, or single-heat-treated actions AND the LATER nickel steel actions). A lot of these are still around.

We must be careful when we brag about our '03 action strength and use General Hatcher as our reference, to correctly represent his findings toward those who might own '03's of the weaker type.

I was also referring to the '95 Winchester as an action that may not be as strong as modern guns (and a double-heat '03). Lots of those still being shot, ammo makers know it, and so SAAMI specs keep the .30-06 tame enough for all these guns. One need not "Hot Rod" an '06 at all to realize much better performance than what is available with a factory load. James cites the 8x57 as another similar example, and the 7x57 can be highlighted here as well. The most glaring example might be the .45-70.

Spitpatch you are correct on the Winchester model 1895. While it is chambered in 30-06 it is right at its limit with M2 Ball level pressures. In fact it is a well known problem with the -06 model 95's that the metal in the bolt face can not handle the repeated high pressures of the -06 round and will compact. Resulting in an increased headspace and eventually a dangerous condition.

One reason the model 95 in 30-40 Krag is such a great combo. The 30-40 Krag in the model 95 can be loaded to just under .308 stats while not pushing the action in the old guns to much.

I load for my c1905 model 1895 in 30-40Krag and find I can throw a 150gr to 180gr bullet to within 100fps of a .308 load and not be working the combination hard at all.
 
James cites the 8x57 as another similar example, and the 7x57 can be highlighted here as well. The most glaring example might be the .45-70.

When I was talking about a weaker cartridge earlier - I was specifically talking about the 7X57 - I have one in an FN mauser and it is one of my favorite cartridges. It shoots flat, hits fairly hard and is ready for the next round quickly. I feel that in most ways the 308 is superior to this cartridge. Another cartridge I am extremely fond of is the 300 savage. In both cases the 308 wins out. I would hunt elk in the proper situation with either of these with the right load. There is nothing wrong with a 308 in any way manner or shape, it beats out ballistically eith ero f my two favorite cartridges. I just like the 30-06 in the bolt and the 308 in the semi. Just like in most situations its what you do with cartridge more that actual differences most times.

James Ruby
 
SAAMI spec for the 30-06 is 50,000CUP, or about 60,000PSI. The 308 is a 62,000PSI cartridge. CUP and PSI cannot be directly translated as they are completely different systems. Now CAN you load-up the '06? Well of course you CAN! However by that rationale, since my Savage in 223WSSM, or Browning in 270Win are "modern, strong actions" there should be no reason why I can't rebarrel them, and make ANY cartridge run at the 65,000PSI that those guns operate at, right??

60,000 psi to 62,000 psi = 3% difference
60,000 psi to 65,000 psi = 8% difference (these numbers are close approximations)

3% difference might as well be the same. 8%, well that's stretching things some, but wasn't part of Spitpatch's post. (although I know I can "hotrod" the 30-06 into that category, that's not part of this thread)

I do disagree with your comment about "function of design". It may be pushing into the range of diminishing returns, like all "magnums" do, but the loading manuals all list loads that were safe under their well controlled conditions that exceed most factory loaded ammunition.

When comparing same diameter bullets, larger case will result in a faster bullet when loaded to a comparable pressure. 3% is comparable.

When talking 3% or even 8%, your comparison of Tanner Foust's Focus to a standard Ford Focus is a bit over blown.

Your comments about Pressure Trace are so valid, though, it almost hurts!

No matter how hard we slice it though, the results will be the same.

Bullets under 180gr, 308 = 30-06.
Bullets 180gr and over, 30-06 wins.
 
Ory,
I was attempting to get him to compare +2,000 PSI in EACH cartridge, or admit that they infact are not designed to run the same pressures. the 65K was a reference to the highest SAAMI working pressure.

JG has a good point about the old books. Lets discuss how pressure testing evolved. It may clear up some of the pressure misconceptions.

Originally Lead crusher slugs were used to measure pressure. Then the cartridges began developing too much pressure to accurately show linear pressures. So they invented something harder, Copper crushers. Now, Copper units of Pressure(CUP) and LUP before that, was actually shown as PSI. Which is NOT correct, and where alot of people get the notion that the military ammo (which was measured in CUP) was loaded to different pressures. Then the same fate befell the Copper crushers, as their lead predacessors. So Piezo Transducers or Strain Guages, were invented. Which unlike crushers, actually registers a force in PSI.
One of the reasons that the Piezo system was invented was due to some HUGE pressure variations in the day. One famous event was when 4, or 5 different "calibrated" crushers were all sent to be used by different manufacturing companies. They were asked to test "Standard" SAAMI loads that they produced. The results varied by a STAGGERING amount. The copper crushers could not accurately measure the pressures now(then) being developed.
So Piezo systems that were accurate, repeatable, and inexpensive were developed.

We should also bring-up the ONE surviving powder manufacturer left in the US. As far as production for the private sector(reloaders) the only one left is General Dynamics.... A US Defense Contractor. The others as far as reloaders are concerned: Eurenco, Thales, and Reihnmetal. One is French Gov't owned, one is a French defense contractor, the last is a German defense contractor. Hodgdon(reseller only) caught some amount of flack over their constant switching of suppliers some 5-6 years ago. Made for some interesting lot variations!

Ron,
The Tumbling you speak of can be many things. What has made that notion infamous, was the original POS boat tail on the 168 SMK; something like 13 deg. They were not stable through the trans-sonic range. That is optimized, and solved with a 7-9 degree boat tail. Like on the 175SMK and many others. Brian Litz has a very good discussion on this in his book.
Using Litz's ballistic calculator, 175SMK's from my Savage 10FP in 308, and Sierra Vol. 5 load data they are still supersonic.
Sierra shows Win 748 with a max load of 43.6gr for 2600FPS. My F-class load is 43gr. with a 5-shot average of 2553 fps.
That speed was re-verified yesterday. The atmosphere at the time was.
900 ft elevation. 56 degrees 64% RH. Using a 2550 fps launch velocity, at 1,000 yards that 175SMK is traveling 1226.7 FPS with a flight time of 1.723.
If you have a slower twist, or thicker air. You can easily push the 155 Lapua Scenar's and VLD's to 1,000.
 
The 30-06 has an advantage over the 308 at 1000 yd competition. In service rifle or match rifle. I own and shoot several rifles of each cal.. When shooting at 1000 yds it is imperative to drive the bullet fast enough to keep it from going sub sonic at 1000 yds. After the bullet goes sub sonic accuracy is lost the bullet tumbles. This is accomplished by pushing the 30 cal. 175 Sierra Match King at a 2700 fps at the muzzle. This is easily accomplished with the '06 and over max load on the 308.

Well! Here is a person who not only does a better job than most of us have sticking to the question at hand, but actually sticks these cartridges to his hand more than the rest of us.

As to an "argument" wherein I might play both sides, I will simply reply much as I might if asked whether or not I have made peace with my God:

"I wasn't aware we were quarreling".

My lack of awareness toward such might also explain my avoidance of condescending statements such as, "read Hatcher's Notebook sometime. good info."

However, there is a differing of opinion as to what "Hot-Rodding" entails. If I gather correctly, Dkr claims stepping over SAAMI pressure in any cartridge is hot-rodding. I differ, in that I DO hover around SAAMI pressures when loading .45-70 in my Trapdoors and Sharps guns. I DO NOT refer to my loading at higher pressures (appropriately and safely) the same cartridge in my Marlin Guide gun, or (even to higher pressures) in my custom Siamese Mauser as "Hot-Rodding". I am loading the cartridge to proven safe levels appropriate for the strength of the gun and well within the capabilities of the cartridge. "Hot-Rodding" by my definition goes to something further. Even the load books recognize the glaring example of the .45-70, and grant three different loading tables for three categories of action strength. No "Hot-Rodding" (by my assignment of meaning) involved.

The .30-06 might receive similar treatment in the load books if the difference between SAAMI spec pressures and what is safely achievable in a modern, strong action was greater. It is significant, but not as significant as in the .45-70. Likewise, the .30-06 might receive a significantly higher SAAMI pressure assignment, were it to be introduced this day (or even alongside the .270 in 1925, or the .308 in 1952).

The load books DO give the .45 Long Colt a similar consideration for the very strong Ruger guns, recommending a good assortment of VERY SAFE AND SENSIBLE loads for those guns which also recognize the easy and true capabilities of the cartridge beyond SAAMI spec pressure (limited by the old Colt's, balloon cases, etc.). Again: by my way of thinking, not "Hot-Rodding" in any fashion.

I was not aware of the Winchester '95 being chambered in .270, so this discovery was helpful. The newer replica versions have done this (and get away with it via better alloys or action modification), but to my previous knowledge, the calibers (in the old guns) are: .30-40 Krag,.30-06, (and 30-03), 7.62 Russian,.38-72, .40-72, .303 Brit, .35 Win, and .405 Winchester. Mine is a .30-06 Carbine, which I load to SAAMI specs (or less) not only out of respect for the action strength, but out of even greater respect for my shoulder strength. For my Springfield, I load to higher pressure, and for my Mannlicher Schoenauer, I'll confess I have approached what might honestly be called "Hot-Rodding": not necessarily because the action will handle it, but because that is where the accuracy (with safety) was found.

The admonition regarding relying solely on "rules of thumb/indicators" of pressure (primer flattening, case expansion) is well taken. But balancing these "rules of thumb" alongside careful study of the load books, chrono readings and others' pressure readings CAN give the shooter (unequipped with other hardware) a very sound understanding about whether or not a load is of safe pressure in his gun. Such a procedure having worked so well for so many years for so many highly experienced shooters cannot be tossed away as useless or invalid.

There is NOTHING about the .30-06 cartridge in itself that would indicate its "design" (or a "system": unless that includes the weaker guns) should limit it to the SAAMI pressures. It is a bottleneck, rimless case of very well-thought and strong design. Aside from its chronological age, we may very well call its design "modern". Even persons not devoted to the cartridge might go as far as to say it is even better designed (for functionality) than some cartridges of very recent design that claim some level of increased "efficiency", while perhaps sacrificing some reliability in function.

SAAMI spec pressure for the .308 CANNOT be regularly and significantly exceeded safely. SAAMI spec pressure for the .30-06 CAN be regularly and significantly exceeded safely (in the right guns). Just as it can be done for the 8x57, 7x57, .45 Long Colt, .45-70 Govt., and a host of other cartridges whose SAAMI spec pressures are dictated by the presence of weaker guns still being shot.

A Montana gentleman I met on the prairie a few years back (we are pictured here) was asked after a short demonstration what he thought of my "exceeding SAAMI spec pressure" load in my double-heat-treated '03 Springfield. Although he had little to say, he probably would agree with those who would claim such a practice was dangerous.....but not for the shooter.

SpringfieldBuck.jpg
2004 Montana State Record
 
Nor have I. I just don't judge a round by if an army uses it.
Still, you do have a point on it must be worth something if it is such a popular round.

It seems like I remember hearing once upon a time that the 7.62x51 NATO is loaded a bit colder than .308 Win for projectile stability purposes, resulting in improved accuracy of course. I have no idea if this is true or not but if it is, then I would think the supposed stability improvement would be noticeable going from .30-06 to .308 Win as well.

Anybody else know anything about this?
 

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