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10/22, SBR, Butler Creek Folder Fix?

Discussion in 'NFA Weapon Discussion' started by Strykervet, Apr 2, 2015.

  1. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    So I SBR's my 10/22 on a Form 1. Put an engraved 4" Beyer aluminum barrel on it and so far I'm pleased. But the Butler Creek stock I got for it, I cut it down to fit which removes much of the forearm and the band. So the rear of the receiver moves up and down and any of you that have done this to a 10/22 knows what I'm talking about. I've read about other fixes but thought about this one and wanted to bounce it off a few other heads before I did it:

    My idea is to drill a (1/4, 5/16, 3/8 inch?) hole in the rear of the buttstock behind the folder portion, likely just above or just below the two screws that affix the folding assy. to the rest of the stock. Then I want to thread it to near the end to insert a heli-coil, with the last 1/4" or so drilled out a smaller diameter to allow a hex set screw to pass through, yet provide a good stop for the heli-coil (which I plan on epoxying in place).

    What I'd be left with is about a 1/4" thick set screw that places pressure on the tang of the trigger group in the 10/22 receiver assy. when installed in the stock. Sure, the folder would have to be removed to remove the receiver, but it would be clean.

    The other option is to drill the hole at about a 45deg. angle just above the folder assy. and install as above using a recessed hex head set screw that fits the heli-coil, and use a light thread locker. This would place a downward pressure on the tang which may perform the job better than placing it at no or a light angle underneath the stock, and perhaps a light divot could be drilled out on the tang and the bolt rounded off to provide a good contact.

    I wish I could draw a picture on here real fast, but if you have this stock and have SBR'd it, you know what I'm talking about.

    What have others done? I know for a fact this mod has been done up here. And do you think a heli-coil would work in the Butler Creek stock, epoxied and drilled to stop 1/4" before the end? Just want some ideas before I commit to drilling and I haven't gotten any answers over on a national site yet, but maybe this conversion is more common up here?

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. bluesurf

    bluesurf Portland Active Member

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    Off thread topic... But how does that barrel shoot? Is it pretty nice?
     
  3. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    Interesting issue. Please post photos when you do the work. :)
     
    boogerhook likes this.
  4. broncman

    broncman E. of Portland yet to close! Quality Control!

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    Seems to me a shim or bedding between the stock and receiver/trigger housing is need. If I am correct 10/22's are held in the rear by the stock in between the lower part of the receiver and nub on the trigger guard.
    May just need to play with shims....
     
  5. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    Yeah, I agree, a bedding job would be best but I neither want to do it or pay for it to be done right. There is nothing for the receiver or tang to engage on with the 10/22 --it's held in place by inletting the stock for the parts to fit, a bolt through the stock and into the selfsame steel bar that connects the barrel to the receiver, and the barrel band, which gets cut off on these modifications.

    So bedding would require a well placed piece of steel to be installed for the tang to engage with, or else another solution would have to be devised to work with bedding.

    It's why I'm electing to just place a heli-coil in there and then a bolt and doing it properly, which should eliminate any movement and allow for the natural cuts and single bolt to work more effectively, sans bedding.
     
  6. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    I actually met the guy at a gunshow here in WA. Really nice fellow and he'll do custom work for you too. All kinds of aluminum barrels with SS sleeves for Rugers, regular contour, bull barrel, fluted, threaded/protector and in all lengths, colors and finishes. Also has light muzzle devices if you need/want those. He does what others don't and also what others used to do. He even sells these stocks for this mod because it's so popular.

    So to answer your question, yeah, it actually shoots about as well as the 18" factory SS barrel did! If you do your part, it'll most certainly do its part. Of course it being shorter, you have to be more conscious of movement, but a red dot works no different with regards to barrel length. Accuracy isn't affected by barrel length either, provided you do your part and ensure bullet stabilization (some bullets can come out keyholing or wobbling from a short barrel and only flatten out later, but it's not as common with .22lr in general).

    With the stock, 4"bbl., factory receiver, the Millet 1" red dot and the Liberty Essence can, I can easily shoot ten rounds into one fat ragged hole standing and unsupported.

    It's kinda like firing a PDW or a little 9mm burp gun like an MP5 or SP89... It feels that way, it's short like that. Easy to move and fun to use!

    It just needs to be locked down in the rear. Yeah, I'll try to get some pictures up when I get it fixed and I may even do the modifications for others for a reasonable price, as I know others have these and need 'em fixed and this seems like a good inexpensive and easy to remove way of doing it that'll work down the road without bedding it and adding more material, which could get quite involved.
     
  7. broncman

    broncman E. of Portland yet to close! Quality Control!

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    There is a reason you have to tilt the barrel up in order to remove the action from the stock. That barrel band does nothing but look good. If it did then you would need it on a bull barrel rifle in order to keep what you are describing from happening.
    I will take some pictures of my Charger to show what I am referring to.
     
  8. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    Thanks Broncman, but it's irrelevant to the issue. On the Butler Creek folding stock, there is nothing for the tang to engage with so the receiver can be removed by pulling it straight up and out.

    I haven't looked at my "stock" stock. Perhaps it engages the receiver better, but I don't recall because it doesn't fit without the stock barrel anymore. Another option is to convert that if it does, like an M2 Paratrooper stock, but I didn't want to have to go that far. An underfolder would be too long anyway.

    I think my fix will solve the problem encountered with these SBR mods using these after market folding stocks just fine without bedding. It's simply a screw that puts light pressure on the tang, keeping it firmly down. When I get a chance, perhaps this weekend, I'll pick up the heli-coil kit and the set screw and try it out.
     
  9. broncman

    broncman E. of Portland yet to close! Quality Control!

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    Here is a picture of my Charger in the stock and it has no movement. 20150403_094947.jpg
    20150403_095007.jpg 20150403_095157.jpg 20150403_095137.jpg
    Picture # 2:
    Here is the action with trigger group attached. See the are at the back made by trigger housing and receiver. This is area I am talking about.
    Picture # 3:
    You can see the rail the receiver sits on top of in the stock here.
    Picture # 4:
    This is the place that the nob in the trigger housing you see in picture two is held so that there is no movement at the rear of the receiver when assembled.

    Pictures 3 and 4 are why you need to lift up at the barrel to remove the action from the stock.

    It would be where I would try and bed or shim to take out any slop.
     
  10. broncman

    broncman E. of Portland yet to close! Quality Control!

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    Sorry was posting while you posted. I had one of those stocks 10+ years ago and wasn't exactly sure how they attach sorry about that was only trying to help out.
     
  11. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    Even if it was bedded, you'd still need a tang of some sorts to stick out and engage between the receiver and the trigger tang (or else it'd still be prone to moving up under pressure --there isn't much to work with here). If you didn't, it wouldn't work on the Butler Creek. It's not cut out the same way as your Charger stock is.

    So the other option is to put downward pressure on that part and stop any upward movement that way. See what I mean?

    There are a few easy fixes, all centered around this same idea of either adding a DIY tang from a hex head bolt, to drilling and installing different bolts different ways and in different places. But it seems the idea I have would be the most "professional" of the quick fixes and would be easily removable for cleaning, particularly if the stock bolt can be replaced with an allen head bolt, using the same wrench as the hex set screw (allen screw) in the stock. Never know what Ace will have around here, they have a good stock.

    But I guess if my stock was set up like yours is, I wouldn't have this problem. I've heard that regular rifle receivers won't fit Charger stocks, is this true? It could be one of the reasons, I don't know. And I could be totally wrong about that.
     
  12. broncman

    broncman E. of Portland yet to close! Quality Control!

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    Charger receiver is the same as a regular rifle receiver other than saying Charger. Lol.
     
  13. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    Oh, no worries, thanks! I'm not trying to rub you wrong man! Apologies if I came off that way.

    I'm just saying that regardless of how yours fits, this one is different --and yep, your pictures proved it. I wish mine fit like yours does, but I'm sure they had to fix that in the factory when they made that particular model and didn't have the normal stock cut the way it is with the bolt and barrel band.

    I just think short of redoing that entire rear portion of the stock, there is no other way, you know?
     
  14. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    So my rifle receiver with 4" bull barrel would fit in your Charger stock with no problems?

    Do you know how much new Charger stocks run off the top of your head? Maybe I could convert one if not too costly, it wouldn't be hard to put this folding assy. on that stock.
     
  15. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    Fixed. I did what I planned. I drilled the smaller hole, then the pilot hole for the heli-coil, then tapped and installed the heli-coil, then over-size drilled the hole sufficient for the allen bolt to seat.

    Turns out better than I had expected. I expected pressure on that tang but what I got was adjustable pressure there (I can JUST remove the slop without adding pressure) and the receiver can be removed without adjusting the bolt --it works like "normal" now. The bolt provides a sufficient stop for the tang not unlike the original except it can be adjusted for depth.

    It's pretty nice actually, I'll try and post some pictures and I may even offer to do these fixes for others if interested.
     
  16. Modeler

    Modeler Molalla, Oregon Soccer Fan

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    :s0122:

    Yer killin' me here.....
     
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  17. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    Okay, here goes. Sorry it took me so long so get pics up, been busy and besides, I only did this on Saturday.

    IMG_0712_zpsxasocc5k.jpg
    Bolt installed in rear of stock. It could be centered better, but this was the first one I've done. No problems with function at all.

    IMG_0711_zps1up1ef3n.jpg
    This is the inside of the stock, sorry it's so dark. If I can get a better picture, I'll swap it out. But really, it's just a black flat back there with a bolt protruding from the center of the plastic --you can't really see the heli-coil, I recessed it.

    IMG_0708_zpszpfzem7q.jpg
    This one shows how the receiver lifts out now. Before the fix, you could just pull the action and barrel straight up and out of the stock. Nothing held it down in the rear and there was a vertical play of about 1/4-1/2" where the rear of the action would move up and down. Now, the bolt locks down the rear of the action similar to the factory method, though this way is adjustable such that the front two blocks that screw together JUST touch when installed.

    IMG_0707_zpsbwrt1gn3.jpg
    Here is the finished SBR with Liberty Essence can and stock open. Sight is a Millet 1" red dot I bought about 20 years ago. All else is factory, but I do plan on putting a better trigger in it one day, and I may put an EO LAD on it one day as well for use in the dark.

    IMG_0706_zpswsueuttt.jpg
    Here it is with the stock folded and the can on. Without the can, there is a plain aluminum colored thread protector that is the same dia. as the barrel and about half of this protector protrudes past where the stock is cut off. Ie, the end of the stock is about the end of the weapon with the suppressor removed. It's just over 13" folded with no can. Great for throwing in a day pack.

    Can't tell you how much fun this thing is! I blow through WAAAAY more ammo now that I have it, 500 rounds a week EASY between it and the PPK/S and I'm really pacing myself on it. Can has to be cleaned once a week at least, thank god for the US cleaner and Kroil!

    Now that I have this down, I'll be taking orders if anyone wants this modification done to their stock. I'll do it for $15 and provide the heli-coil and bolt, you provide the actual shipping both ways and send me ONLY the stock (you can DIY, but you'll have to do the work, possess the 3 odd bits used and pay ~$30 for the heli-coil kit and bolt used). The bolt is adjustable but doesn't move when installed, so when you get it back all you have to do is adjust it so it provides only the amount of pressure you need and then forget about it; the bolt head seats tight, so it doesn't move after setting it. I'll have it adjusted approximately right using my own receiver and likely it'll fit right away, but some adj. may be necessary.

    And of course, if by any way I damage the stock, I'll replace it. But it's such an easy fix I doubt I'll have any problems at all.

    There are other ways of carrying out this fix, using different materials and designs as I mentioned above, but mine seems to be the best bang for the buck.

    Sure, there are better ways such as fully bedding this stock, but it's costly and not really gonna be much of a payout. My accuracy did not change, the only change is that the action doesn't move in the stock anymore (which I'm sure affects accuracy at longer ranges than what I was testing at, 25m max.). I can easily put ten rounds in one group on the bottom of a narrow can at that range, and closer it shoots one fat ragged hole. This is standing unsupported, in the prone or squatting it does even better of course.

    Besides, the idea behind these conversions is that they are cheap: $200 tax stamp, your old 10/22, a folding stock and a short barrel of your choice (SS or sleeved aluminum, such as mine, your choice of length, color, etc.). Throw it together and have fun!
     
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  18. Modeler

    Modeler Molalla, Oregon Soccer Fan

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    Thanks for the photos. I had a Butler Creek folder but got rid of it for precisely the problem you've fixed; nice work!
     
  19. Strykervet

    Strykervet Pierce Co. Member

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    Hey, thanks. I didn't have much of a choice BUT to fix it, and I wasn't satisfied with the other methods I found online. This one, however, satisfies me quite well.

    It would satisfy me better if a few people would take me up on the offer to do this fix to theirs so that it'll pay for my investment in the heli-coil tool (bought solely for this fix). Besides, you can't DIY it for half of what I'm offering, and you don't have to do anything!

    If interested, let me know and I can make it happen. I fix Butler Creek 10/22 folders!
     
  20. coyote223

    coyote223 NW Oregon Stamp Collector,,,

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    I did the pretty much the same SBR as yours, only I havn't noticed any movement with mine. Otherwise I might have considered it,,, ;)

    Great little guns,,,

    007.jpg
     
    308 likes this.