YOUR NECK IS TOO THIN...

[DizzyJ]

These groups were shot with necks turned down to .0082 and I typically shoot each case about 14 times before I start getting a click upon extraction. Cases are still useable but I start fresh with new brass after 14 reloads because the click comes with a heavier bolt lift and that upsets my aiming.View attachment 412667

That some damned fine shooting right there! Are those 5 or 3-shot groups?

Regardless, that's pretty damned good!

 

[Larry243]

These groups were shot with necks turned down to .0082 and I typically shoot each case about 14 times before I start getting a click upon extraction. Cases are still useable but I start fresh with new brass after 14 reloads because the click comes with a heavier bolt lift and that upsets my aiming.View attachment 412667

Below is my 5 round group target for 100 yds per/ bullet used at the range. It has a target for each bullet I shoot. The lower one is my Data from shooting at the range with required scope settings. I am surprised that you are not having splits or safety issues with allowing the cartridge brass to be that thin. It must be hard to control the ballistics with such different bullet retention pressure. Getting 14 reloads per/case is far more then what is safe for me as the brass by then is work hardened far to much. C26000 or B36 cartridge brass is intended to be drawn in tooling, but not to be re-struck or formed much after. It seams a little to dangerous for me.

 

[Larry243]

That some damned fine shooting right there! Are those 5 or 3-shot groups?

Regardless, that's pretty damned good!

Below is my 5 round group target for 100 yds per/ bullet used at the range. It has a target for each bullet I shoot. The lower one is my Data from shooting at the range with required scope settings. I am surprised that you are not having splits or safety issues with allowing the cartridge brass to be that thin. It must be hard to control the ballistics with such different bullet retention pressure. Getting 14 reloads per/case is far more then what is safe for me as the brass by then is work hardened far to much. C26000 or B36 cartridge brass is intended to be drawn in tooling, but not to be re-struck or formed much after. It seams a little to dangerous for me.

 

[Otter]

That some damned fine shooting right there! Are those 5 or 3-shot groups?

Regardless, that's pretty damned good!

5 shot groups. Don't give me shooting credit though. It is more a credit to the quality of the equipment and the gunsmith. A lot of the credit goes to the high quality of bullets. I will take credit for the reloading though. A lot of work goes into that part of it.

 

[Otter]

Larry - I have a lot of Lapua brass with multiple reloads. The 220 Russian brass I use for PPC is reloaded 10+ times with those thin necks. Been using the same 150 cases since I got the rifle. I have some 6mmBR cases I'm still using with 25 reloads on them, but I don't turn the necks down on those and I don't anneal either. That rifle shoots just as good with that brass as the day I got it. I also have 500 rounds of Lapua .223 brass with 15 plus reloads. I've yet to lose any of these cases to splits or failures. I know of quite a few other people with similar results.

What brand of brass do you use?

 

[rcnpthfndr]

good read for this topic

Rifle Cartridge Neck Sizing - MassReloading

this article reminded me of a conversation a master rifle builder i met back in the early 90's and I had. Back when I actually gave a bubblegum about the ocd side of reloading I would turn necks, H2O test the cases for capacity, lube em with unicorn semen, and coat the bullets with frog hair for increased velocity, etc, etc.

I met Henry of Waskom, Texas and we got on this subject. he said "young man let me show you some things" he would proceed to school me how to turn necks vs. using a concentricity gauge with dial to make sure bullets were pointing the right way vs. using neck bushings. at the end of the lesson there was no real difference in the group sizes between the different techniques.
I remember him saying that a lot of the "refined" reloading steps only make the shooter feel better.
He told me one time there were three primary causes for bad accuracy. The shooter, the rifle and the ammunition and that the man who could make all 3 work together is a world class marksman.
we would spend hours chatting over stuff from lock time, inconsistent lands and grooves, bad chambers to reloading and all its nuances. all the stuff that drives accuracy nuts crazy.

When he finished my rifle he gave me a set of neck sizing dies with bushings and a bag of fire formed brass and told me when they don't hold tension toss the brass.
I think I got mid to high teens of reloading per case before I followed his advice

anyhoo I guess I rambled a bit. hope I didn't put anyone in a coma

 

[Larry243]

good read for this topic

Rifle Cartridge Neck Sizing - MassReloading

this article reminded me of a conversation a master rifle builder i met back in the early 90's and I had. Back when I actually gave a bubblegum about the ocd side of reloading I would turn necks, H2O test the cases for capacity, lube em with unicorn semen, and coat the bullets with frog hair for increased velocity, etc, etc.

I met Henry of Waskom, Texas and we got on this subject. he said "young man let me show you some things" he would proceed to school me how to turn necks vs. using a concentricity gauge with dial to make sure bullets were pointing the right way vs. using neck bushings. at the end of the lesson there was no real difference in the group sizes between the different techniques.
I remember him saying that a lot of the "refined" reloading steps only make the shooter feel better.
He told me one time there were three primary causes for bad accuracy. The shooter, the rifle and the ammunition and that the man who could make all 3 work together is a world class marksman.
we would spend hours chatting over stuff from lock time, inconsistent lands and grooves, bad chambers to reloading and all its nuances. all the stuff that drives accuracy nuts crazy.

When he finished my rifle he gave me a set of neck sizing dies with bushings and a bag of fire formed brass and told me when they don't hold tension toss the brass.
I think I got mid to high teens of reloading per case before I followed his advice

anyhoo I guess I rambled a bit. hope I didn't put anyone in a coma

What a great message, and well said. Yes, sometimes we are more into trying to be to perfect on things that really is not important.. I know as a Too & Die Maker and Designer I have a tendency to be to way over the edge, but it is just the nature of the beast in me due to my life style with high quality manufacturing processes and demands for excellence. The real world is not like that, and it is nice to get checked now and then.... Maybe I can live with a quality level 6-7....LOL
Larry243

 

[Larry243]

Larry - I have a lot of Lapua brass with multiple reloads. The 220 Russian brass I use for PPC is reloaded 10+ times with those thin necks. Been using the same 150 cases since I got the rifle. I have some 6mmBR cases I'm still using with 25 reloads on them, but I don't turn the necks down on those and I don't anneal either. That rifle shoots just as good with that brass as the day I got it. I also have 500 rounds of Lapua .223 brass with 15 plus reloads. I've yet to lose any of these cases to splits or failures. I know of quite a few other people with similar results.

What brand of brass do you use?

I do and have mostly always used Hornady loading products for a couple of reasons. 1st, they are a quality level 8 product that is available without ordering products on-line that only drives the cost up more. 2nd, they have proven to be reliable, and perform as good if not better then most others. I also shoot a 6.5 Creedmoor, so of course who knows more about ammo for it then Hornady. I batch my fired rounds by size before trimming and reloading to maintain the rotation of brass correctly. I can say that I do not like using brass more then 3-4 times, because I do not like the imbrittlement that happens from stretching and thinning. I reload for one reason. To ensure that I can cove 1-1/2" at one hundred yds. so I know I will have a good kill shot when hunting. It is not important for me to have a .250 BC that most Bench range shooters try and obtain. I enjoy shooting things with hair more, and not just paper. I do like knowing that I loaded the shell that brought home....What's for dinner.
Larry243

 

[P7M13]

The best answer is...
The thicker the metal, the tighter th retention and better consistency in multiple rounds. As brass thins it also becomes brittle and looses it't retention value. It also will no longer fit the chamber correctly for re-loaders.
Cartridge Brass that is C26000 or sometimes known as B36 is annealed for manufacturing capability and draw qualities for tooling. If it were 1/4 hard it would break, split, crack, or blowout during forming. The annealing process of old fired brass only helps minimal at best.... If the base metal stretches to much it's done anyway!

The hand gun was manufactured with a pre-sized chamber and to fit a specific diameter cartridge. If the bullet Jump and cartridge diameter is excessive, what do you then get out the other end.... RIGHT
Larry243

1. My experience teaches me otherwise. Bullet jump has less effect than errors in concentricity. Some of the most accurate ammo I've loaded had a .050" jump to the lands.
   
2. I get the same results from tight necks (non-annealed) vs. fresh brass vs. freshly annealed. Any variation in the shot is me. What I find through experience is the bullet/load which best matches my barrel harmonics will be the most accurate. Same bullet, same manufacturer brass, different powder loads = big difference in accuracy. Velocity be damned, I select the loads which consistently touch.
   
3. I anneal to avoid splits, because work-hardening creates crystal structure weakness, the main source of cracks. Annealing allows the metal crystalline structures to realign, eliminating most of the segment weaknesses.
   
4. For me, tossing brass due to neck splits is much less common than sloppy primer pockets. I worry more about case head separation due to brass that's too thin, but in thousands of rounds, I've only had one.

good read for this topic

Rifle Cartridge Neck Sizing - MassReloading

this article reminded me of a conversation a master rifle builder i met back in the early 90's and I had. Back when I actually gave a bubblegum about the ocd side of reloading I would turn necks, H2O test the cases for capacity, lube em with unicorn semen, and coat the bullets with frog hair for increased velocity, etc, etc.

I met Henry of Waskom, Texas and we got on this subject. he said "young man let me show you some things" he would proceed to school me how to turn necks vs. using a concentricity gauge with dial to make sure bullets were pointing the right way vs. using neck bushings. at the end of the lesson there was no real difference in the group sizes between the different techniques.
I remember him saying that a lot of the "refined" reloading steps only make the shooter feel better.
He told me one time there were three primary causes for bad accuracy. The shooter, the rifle and the ammunition and that the man who could make all 3 work together is a world class marksman.
we would spend hours chatting over stuff from lock time, inconsistent lands and grooves, bad chambers to reloading and all its nuances. all the stuff that drives accuracy nuts crazy.

When he finished my rifle he gave me a set of neck sizing dies with bushings and a bag of fire formed brass and told me when they don't hold tension toss the brass.
I think I got mid to high teens of reloading per case before I followed his advice

anyhoo I guess I rambled a bit. hope I didn't put anyone in a coma

Great advice there. Thanks for the link to Massreloading.

Here's my take:

• If neck tension made that much of a difference, then my nickel brass would produce much different results than my non-nickel brass. They don't, meaning all are 1 MOA or better. I'm not shooting for 1/4 MOA.
• Same goes for neck crimped loads vs non.
  
• Bullet alignment / concentricity is essential. To get this, I will seat the bullet slightly, lower the ram, rotate the bullet ~ 60°, seat some more, lower, rotate, until the ram is full way. I rotate four times minimum.
  
• I look for the powder tracks on the outside of a spent case. If I have a lot, it tells me the case has not mated properly with the chamber throat. I have never seen any tracks go past mid-shoulder, which means my case is sealing properly. If I did see them, I would recognize that I have a problem.
  
• When the powder ignites, it pushes the bullet to the lands, then the case expands the case in the chamber, creating the seal for the powder to then push the bullet through the barrel. Once the bullet has left the barrel, the case contracts 0.0005 - 0.002", enough to slide out of the chamber on extraction. It's this expansion and contraction, coupled with the compression by the sizing die that "work hardens" your brass.
  
• Once the neck expands, tension is meaningless. Every spent case I have, I can easily slide a bullet in and out of the neck.

 

[Larry243]

1. My experience teaches me otherwise. Bullet jump has less effect than errors in concentricity. Some of the most accurate ammo I've loaded had a .050" jump to the lands.
   
2. I get the same results from tight necks (non-annealed) vs. fresh brass vs. freshly annealed. Any variation in the shot is me. What I find through experience is the bullet/load which best matches my barrel harmonics will be the most accurate. Same bullet, same manufacturer brass, different powder loads = big difference in accuracy. Velocity be damned, I select the loads which consistently touch.
   
3. I anneal to avoid splits, because work-hardening creates crystal structure weakness, the main source of cracks. Annealing allows the metal crystalline structures to realign, eliminating most of the segment weaknesses.
   
4. For me, tossing brass due to neck splits is much less common than sloppy primer pockets. I worry more about case head separation due to brass that's too thin, but in thousands of rounds, I've only had one.

Great advice there. Thanks for the link to Massreloading.

Here's my take:

• If neck tension made that much of a difference, then my nickel brass would produce much different results than my non-nickel brass. They don't, meaning all are 1 MOA or better. I'm not shooting for 1/4 MOA.
• Same goes for neck crimped loads vs non.
  
• Bullet alignment / concentricity is essential. To get this, I will seat the bullet slightly, lower the ram, rotate the bullet ~ 60°, seat some more, lower, rotate, until the ram is full way. I rotate four times minimum.
  
• I look for the powder tracks on the outside of a spent case. If I have a lot, it tells me the case has not mated properly with the chamber throat. I have never seen any tracks go past mid-shoulder, which means my case is sealing properly. If I did see them, I would recognize that I have a problem.
  
• When the powder ignites, it pushes the bullet to the lands, then the case expands the case in the chamber, creating the seal for the powder to then push the bullet through the barrel. Once the bullet has left the barrel, the case contracts 0.0005 - 0.002", enough to slide out of the chamber on extraction. It's this expansion and contraction, coupled with the compression by the sizing die that "work hardens" your brass.
  
• Once the neck expands, tension is meaningless. Every spent case I have, I can easily slide a bullet in and out of the neck.

You are spot on my friend!
Most re-loaders cannot properly anneal brass correctly anyway. It is a special process to only anneal and quench the neck and not the entire cartridge. When cartridges are manufactured, they go through several operations of extruding as well at heat annealing to reduce the brittleness of work hardening.
I am in total agreement with you, and that Is why I am so dead convinced that bottle brushing the inside of the neck that removes caked on residue is much more important for good retention. I say metal to metal....Better. I also rotate my cartridges 3 times while pushing the bullet in. I believe that the Die tolerances are not close enough to push it straight without rotating 3 times.
I know, I am way over the edge with some of this, but what the Hell, when your retired you can enjoy this thinking!...LOL
Enjoy friend!
Larry243

 

[Larry243]

You are spot on my friend!
Most re-loaders cannot properly anneal brass correctly anyway. It is a special process to only anneal and quench the neck and not the entire cartridge. When cartridges are manufactured, they go through several operations of extruding as well at heat annealing to reduce the brittleness of work hardening.
I am in total agreement with you, and that Is why I am so dead convinced that bottle brushing the inside of the neck that removes caked on residue is much more important for good retention. I say metal to metal....Better. I also rotate my cartridges 3 times while pushing the bullet in. I believe that the Die tolerances are not close enough to push it straight without rotating 3 times.
I know, I am way over the edge with some of this, but what the Hell, when your retired you can enjoy this thinking!...LOL
Enjoy friend!
Larry243

 

[Certaindeaf]

.To ensure that I can cove 1-1/2" at one hundred yds..

Well it is seeming to me that you're coming off of a high horse here, with a universal statement/pronouncement and all.
Me, I've found that if your necks are too thick (opposite of thin-neck warning here), you won't be able to chamber them easily or at all and that could actually be dangerous as it would pinch (yea, they have been checked and trimmed for length) the projectile undesirably such so.
Which leads us to you going "aha! but I'm looking for accuracy!".. well 1.5-2moa isn't really all that, for someone to start a thread about some neck (giggity) action.

 

[Larry243]

Well it is seeming to me that you're coming off of a high horse here, with a universal statement/pronouncement and all.
Me, I've found that if your necks are too thick (opposite of thin-neck warning here), you won't be able to chamber them easily or at all and that could actually be dangerous as it would pinch (yea, they have been checked and trimmed for length) the projectile undesirably such so.
Which leads us to you going "aha! but I'm looking for accuracy!".. well 1.5-2moa isn't really all that, for someone to start a thread about some neck (giggity) action.

Please go take a nap and get back to me....

 

[DizzyJ]

Don't make me pull this car over......

 

[Crohnos01]

Or... Don't make me pull this Kahr... over?

 

[Otter]

If you are tossing brass after 3 or 4 reloads I think you are throwing money away. The only split necks I've ever had was some Winchester .22-250 brass that I'm pretty sure didn't get annealed to begin with and some of them split after fired once.

I've tried the rotate the die 1/3 or 1/2 as I complete the bullet seating process, and found with inexpensive dies like RCBS it can make an improvement in how straight the ammo is but didn't see enough on-target results to continue the process. I use Wilson seating dies now and runout is near perfect unless the case has some sort of problem to begin with.

 

[Larry243]

If you are tossing brass after 3 or 4 reloads I think you are throwing money away. The only split necks I've ever had was some Winchester .22-250 brass that I'm pretty sure didn't get annealed to begin with and some of them split after fired once.

I've tried the rotate the die 1/3 or 1/2 as I complete the bullet seating process, and found with inexpensive dies like RCBS it can make an improvement in how straight the ammo is but didn't see enough on-target results to continue the process. I use Wilson seating dies now and runout is near perfect unless the case has some sort of problem to begin with.

Thanks,
I will check it out!

 

[Larry243]

If you are tossing brass after 3 or 4 reloads I think you are throwing money away. The only split necks I've ever had was some Winchester .22-250 brass that I'm pretty sure didn't get annealed to begin with and some of them split after fired once.

I've tried the rotate the die 1/3 or 1/2 as I complete the bullet seating process, and found with inexpensive dies like RCBS it can make an improvement in how straight the ammo is but didn't see enough on-target results to continue the process. I use Wilson seating dies now and runout is near perfect unless the case has some sort of problem to begin with.

Thanks,
I will check it out!

 

[DizzyJ]

If you are tossing brass after 3 or 4 reloads I think you are throwing money away. The only split necks I've ever had was some Winchester .22-250 brass that I'm pretty sure didn't get annealed to begin with and some of them split after fired once.

I've tried the rotate the die 1/3 or 1/2 as I complete the bullet seating process, and found with inexpensive dies like RCBS it can make an improvement in how straight the ammo is but didn't see enough on-target results to continue the process. I use Wilson seating dies now and runout is near perfect unless the case has some sort of problem to begin with.

I've done tests with rotating the case in the shell holder 2-3 times during seating the bullet. What I've found, is that with standard bullet seating dies, it definitely made a difference in run out (improved/diminished it).

However, with competition seating dies like the Forster competition micrometer seating die, it really made almost zero difference. The sleeve that guides the bullet up into the die does all the work for you and there's no need to rotate when using these types of seating dies.

 

[Larry243]

I've done tests with rotating the case in the shell holder 2-3 times during seating the bullet. What I've found, is that with standard bullet seating dies, it definitely made a difference in run out (improved/diminished it).

However, with competition seating dies like the Forster competition micrometer seating die, it really made almost zero difference. The sleeve that guides the bullet up into the die does all the work for you and there's no need to rotate when using these types of seating dies.

The Die has nothing to do with the concentricity of the neck to the Cartridge except that it re- forms the diameter again while extruding the anvil into the case. I have found that it does help some, it you rotate the case 3-4 times when pressing in the bullet. Lift rotate, Lift rotate, Lift rotate. It tries to press the bullet on centerline a little better. A lot depends on how well the case is formed through the process.... Carbide dies do work the best, but they are very expensive for general re-loading. I only have one, and that is for my .243. I am not into absolute pin-point shooting. I shoot to ensure I can cover 1-1/2" at 100 yds every time, every round. That is for my hunting and not for paper piercing. I can't bring meat home from the Range...LOL I shoot Sporting fire arms, and not precision paper punchers. I can cover 1-1/2 + at 200 yds with my 6.5 Creedmoor and that my friend, brings home dinner with the hair on it....
Keep shooting straight....
Larry243