You voted to tax the rich

[Jamie6.5]

Yes, you're much better off favoring candidates that are backed by the rich, as they will create your dream utopia by transforming the US in a feudal aristocrisy of money, where most people can live the happy lives of slaves dreaming of being the master in the big house!

Gee, I guess for the last 234 years every citizen in the U.S. has been under the thumb of corporate aristocracy,... Regardless of the wages and benefits federal, state, county and city workers have enjoyed.

And you guys think the rest of us are tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy theorists!

One more clueless advocate of the public sector union puppet masters.
Sorry buggy, the thugs have no clothes.

 

[SonicBlue03]

I've spent 40 years working for the wealthy. I had a client that grew up in Foster Homes, and became a United Airlines Pilot, and land owner. He is now 70 and bought a 60' yacht that he and his wife enjoy. They had seven kids and all of them have done fine.

I had another client who went to Body & Fender school at a junior college right out of high school. By age 30 he had his own business. He's now 57 and has grown his business nicely since then. 45' sailboat

Another client of mine started at Walmart as a checker. He kept taking college courses and now he is the Actuary for Walmart at their headquarters. He has his own indoor shooting range.

I can site many examples of people who did well who came from humble, and less than humble beginnings.
Anyone, anyone at all who believes they are being held down by someone else or by "The Man" is only being held down by their own self-imposed limitations, and not by any extraneous source or person.

Flat broke immigrants come from all over the world to the U.S. and shame dozens of home-grown white boys in this country by their industrialism, and go-for broke attitude when it comes to pursuing education, careers, and their own businesses.

On the other hand there is no shame at all in being employed, and being content at whatever you do. Most people are like that, and such a life is good enough for most of us.

But, for those that are always blaming "The Man" (the wealthy) or somebody else for their own lot in life, I suggest you leave that attitude at the door as the only one who suffers is you, and yours. Oh... And it doesn't change anything for you. You and you alone remain in doldrums of life. Either make changes, or be content with your lot in life and enjoy what you have.

Must be the New Year or the End Of Days. You wrote something I wholeheartedly agree with.

 

[bugeye]

Gee, I guess for the last 234 years every citizen in the U.S. has been under the thumb of corporate aristocracy,... Regardless of the wages and benefits federal, state, county and city workers have enjoyed.

And you guys think the rest of us are tin-foil-hat wearing conspiracy theorists!

One more clueless advocate of the public sector union puppet masters.
Sorry buggy, the thugs have no clothes.

Yeap, sounds like all workers need unions, then you wouldn't have to be jelous of what the State and Federal Workers get.

Given Organized labor the first thing they should do is get rid of our absurd trade agreements that don't favor us at all. We need to start protecting American Manufacturing jobs. In the last ten years the US has lost over 5000 manufacutring plants per year with the work going overseas. In 1960 29% of our population was employed in manufacturing and today we are at 9%. Since goth the gov or the private sector have done nearly everything possible to speed our decline, the need for a force to reverse this trend is necessary for the very survival of the middle class and our economy as a while. I guess it just too bad that the people who could do the most to change these policies have become willingly brainwashed proxies for the ubbers. Got to hand it too the American Right though, very few groups have ever represented the exact opposite of their economic interest with more zeal.

 

[KalamaMark]

Your lack of formal knowledge in domestic and world commerce, and economics is showing by your inaccurate, and simplistic paradigm you have cited herein.
Furthermore, I would encourage you to at least use a spell checker, and amongst other things, also learn how to use "to" and "too" correctly.
Your lock-step Socialist ramblings are predictable, and very familiar.

C'mon, now Gunfixx... That post broke every debate rule, and reinforced your opponents position by your lack of a well presented counterpoint.

You might as well have thrown your toys on the floor and yelled 'O yeah...well, yer full of sh1t, and 'tarded, too!!!'

 

[KalamaMark]

Sorry bud,... That doesn't begin to compare to what a public sector union does.
We aren't protecting workers from evil profit mongers with public sector unions.
Unless you consider yourself, a taxpayer. an evil profit monger.
Unless you believe that counties statewide would be forcing 8 year olds to shovel snow and rake up the leaves in parks, and put them on litter patrol.
The list is longer but most will get the point. Are you really that clueless?

Public sector unions are bleeding the state, county and city governments dry, and need to go.

I must restate the fact that the blame here is entirely misdirected. It is not the 'unions' or the 'workers' that are 'bleeding the government dry.'

Any contract with any of the unions was negotiated, agreed upon, and signed by a government official with their hand on YOUR checkbook.

If I'm a 'city manager', and my agent asks the city council for a million dollar a year salary and the city council feels like it's a good deal and signs for it....Who is responsible for the salary I'm paid? Who signed the contract, who signed the check? FOLLOW THE MONEY AND THE POWER!

It's absurd to blame the employee or their agent for the wages and benefits paid to them. Someone agreed to all those terms, with your money.

Don't blame those who are angling for the best deal possible. We're all angling for the best deal possible. Blame those who signed the contracts and the checks.

This talk radio inspired anger towards workers and their agents is incredibly misdirected.

 

[MA Duce]

I must restate the fact that the blame here is entirely misdirected. It is not the 'unions' or the 'workers' that are 'bleeding the government dry.'

Any contract with any of the unions was negotiated, agreed upon, and signed by a government official with their hand on YOUR checkbook.

If I'm a 'city manager', and my agent asks the city council for a million dollar a year salary and the city council feels like it's a good deal and signs for it....Who is responsible for the salary I'm paid? Who signed the contract, who signed the check? FOLLOW THE MONEY AND THE POWER!

It's absurd to blame the employee or their agent for the wages and benefits paid to them. Someone agreed to all those terms, with your money.

Don't blame those who are angling for the best deal possible. We're all angling for the best deal possible. Blame those who signed the contracts and the checks.

This talk radio inspired anger towards workers and their agents is incredibly misdirected.

 

[Sling Blade]

+1

 

[fuhr52]

I'm not a big union fan but I agree these union contracts were agreed upon and should be honored. But also there was some pressure to bare if they weren't honored. Business stays in business as long as it can maintain a profit. When that cannot be sustained changes have to happen to keep the door open. If that means moving over seas, that is what happens or go out of business. With any business there comes a point that will make or brake you. Labor doesn't always seem to care. It becomes more of a "what's in it for me" then how do we take care of labor and keep the business open.

 

[KalamaMark]

Gunfixx...
I could care less about Valejo... I didn't even know where it was until you made me research it. And what I found reinforced my point....
"The study also found that lavish pay and benefit packages were a root cause of the city's problems. In Vallejo compensation packages for police captains top $300,000 a year and average $171,000 a year for firefighters. Regular public employees in the city can retire at age 55 with 81% of their final year's pay guaranteed. Police and fire officials can retire at age 50 with a pension that pays them 90% of their final year's salary every year for life and the lives of their spouses."
Found here..
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703625304575115551578762006.html

Now...I think you and I will agree that that is a DAMN fine compensation package. A dream gig. You and I would LOVE to have a job with those terms, wouldn't we?

However....the question is... Who is responsible for those terms? Is it the entity who asked for them, or is it the person who AGREED to them?

Here's an analogy... I walk into a gun show with a pristine 1895 Winchester in my hand. A guy walks up and offers me $200 cash, and I take the cash and shake on it. Was it a good deal? It must have been, 'cause I accepted it. Who's shoulders does the value deficit ride on? Mine...the seller, because I didn't do my due diligence.

If I walk into a gun show, see a nice Polytech AK, NIB, and offer $300, and I take it home... was it a good deal? For who? It must be, because both parties agreed to it.

Valejo went bankrupt because the elected and/or appointed folks they had negotiating contracts were one of 3 things.

1. Incredibly stupid and math challenged.
2. On the take and corrupt.
3. Sharing the medical peace pipe before contract votes.

The onus and ire still lays on the government shoulders, not the union or the workers.
I hold the same logic for the automakers.

The folks that hold the capital and the checkbook have the power and the responsibility.

The workers just negotiate the best deal they can get. That was a sweet deal they got in Valejo. Unsustainable.. Obviously. Sweet nonetheless. You can't blame the worker's agents for taking it, either. You can only lay the blame on those who approved it.

My suggestion would be to re-direct your attention to contract oversight on the government side, instead of directing wasted blanket anger towards unions as an entity. The unions are just taking care of their own. Your government is GIVING away the money they took from you.

 

[KalamaMark]

Until his last comment, I gave him ample fodder in this thread.

BTW, yes the blame is on the politicians who are in the back pocket of the union leadership.
Unions have worn out and abused their welcome in our society, and you can thank your elected official who voted on behalf of financially unsustainable union contracts.
Vallejo, Calif went broke as a result of bloated union contracts, and now many are following their foot steps into bankruptcy.
Vote Democrat... The fastest way to government bankruptcy.

Let's put this on a scale closer to yer wallet...

Let's just say you found your way, as a gun finisher, on to a government bid list.

As you are going through the mail, you find a request for a bid from the government to put a basic finish on 1,000 lower receivers.

You're not interested in the work, as it is outside your normal scope of work...but you want to stay on the list, and you must submit a bid to stay active on the list for future work.

You figure full retail would be $200 each...you don't have the time or the facilities for that kind of volume.

A few seconds with the calculator, a chuckle to yourself, and you fill in a quote for $600 per piece, just to send them on there merry way to the next bidder.

Two months later, you check your mail, you were the only bidder and you have a signed contract for $600,000 to coat 1,000 receivers, due in 3 months.

Really....are you gonna send them a protest letter saying that $600,000 is too much and you'd do it for $200,000?

Really?

Or do you bust ***, train some folks, buy some equipment and make good by the contract signed?

I thought so.

But that would be different, because that's free market capitalism, so it's o.k. There were no evil unions involved. But if you're honest, you'd realize it's the same scenario.

 

[bugeye]

Your lack of formal knowledge in domestic and world commerce, and economics is showing by your inaccurate, and simplistic paradigm you have cited herein.
Furthermore, I would encourage you to at least use a spell checker, and amongst other things, also learn how to use "to" and "too" correctly.
Your lock-step Socialist ramblings are predictable, and very familiar.

I see my 'lock step' socialist ramblings have included discussions of the danger of the CDS, how outfits like Magnatar and Goldman are criminals, how the million dollar per member of congress campaign contributions by the major financials resulted in the slap on the wrist regulations, put the defict in perspective, cited actual facts and stats, and showed that information presented is not just BS but that special kind designed to fool the dim witted (obviously effective here as it was posted). I have done this with a perspective that is so far from lock step that I can't even find anyone who agrees with me. As to the lack of spell check and my typos, I take full responsibility for that.

As far as protecting our manufacturing base and working against free trade, that is the most sensible idea anyone can have if you value employment in this country. If you have a more enlightened concept 'oh great outgassing bag of ego' I've yet to hear it!

 

[Jamie6.5]

I must restate the fact that the blame here is entirely misdirected. It is not the 'unions' or the 'workers' that are 'bleeding the government dry.'

Any contract with any of the unions was negotiated, agreed upon, and signed by a government official with their hand on YOUR checkbook.

If I'm a 'city manager', and my agent asks the city council for a million dollar a year salary and the city council feels like it's a good deal and signs for it....Who is responsible for the salary I'm paid? Who signed the contract, who signed the check? FOLLOW THE MONEY AND THE POWER!

It's absurd to blame the employee or their agent for the wages and benefits paid to them. Someone agreed to all those terms, with your money.

Don't blame those who are angling for the best deal possible. We're all angling for the best deal possible. Blame those who signed the contracts and the checks.

This talk radio inspired anger towards workers and their agents is incredibly misdirected.

So then when the union contributes millions to the politician's campaign, and that allows him/her to become the officer holder that approved said contract there is no conflict of interest or collusion involved?
Get a clue!
I love how so many here decry the SCOTUS' decision that allows corporations to become "individuals" and contribute to political campaigns, but can't make the same connection where public sector unions are involved.
There are a number of union members here that have stated repeatedly that their unions make contributions that are contrary to their political views, but they are powerless to stop them.

So the union makes contributions to get joe schmoe elected, and good ol' joe lines their pockets with payback by approving their latest labor contract demands, and that's okay with you.

You guys gotta think a little harder about where tax dollars go, and the route they take to get there!

 

[Jamie6.5]

I see my 'lock step' socialist ramblings have included discussions of the danger of the CDS, how outfits like Magnatar and Goldman are criminals, how the million dollar per member of congress campaign contributions by the major financials resulted in the slap on the wrist regulations, put the defict in perspective, cited actual facts and stats, and showed that information presented is not just BS but that special kind designed to fool the dim witted (obviously effective here as it was posted). <snip>

Buggy you crack me up they way you keep bringing Magnatar up in conversations about corruption and political contributions with regard to CDOs/CDSs and the financial collapse.
Apparently you don't know who Magnetar's favorite, and only political connection is.
And you have the gall to label others here as "dimwitted?" Or were you referring to yourself with that remark?

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010...ar-capital-the-definition-of-compromised.html

And the hedge fund's cagey bet on Rahm? Litowitz and his wife had never before made significant political donations. In 2005, they started giving to Rahm and his PACs, and only PACs connected to Rahm, just before the Magnetar CDO program began, and continued through the first quarter of 2008, when the trade would have started to pay out handsomely. The Litowitzs gave a total of $8,000 to Emanuel and $10,000 to his Our Common Values PAC in May 2005. In 2006 and 2007, they contributed $51,700 to the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, while Emanuel was chairman. We have been advised by individuals involved in political fundraising that the amounts given would be considered significant, and the way the payments were distributed across the PACs is sophisticated. Put it another way: this money was not given impersonally.

But this troubling connection should be no surprise. Rahm has long been a favorite of the hedge funds, having raised more money from them than any Senator not running for President. Not surprisingly, he has been a staunch supporter of the financial services industry, and is widely credited with playing a key role in securing passage of the TARP after its initial defeat.

As the Magnetar-Rahm connection highlights, Obama raised more money from financial services players than any previous presidential candidate, so it can hardly be a surprise that he and his minions are happy to give the industry a free pass. Key policy figures maintain that no one was at fault, that there was a pervasive lack of regulation, and there are therefore no bad actors. That party line also means that destructive behavior is and will remain unquestioned, unexamined, uncorrected, and unpunished. We are still paying for the costs of the financial train wreck of 2007 and 2008. We can no longer afford the costs of willful blindness.

So while you are railing against Magnetar and their corrupt ways, you admit you voted to put their political favorites in office.
Please note the sentence I emphasized with bold type in the article quoted.
That is the problem in a nutshell.

 

[bugeye]

You can make laws to rein in such activities to an extent, but you cannot legislate sound principles, and a high level of moral climate.
Because of this you will have the very same levels of greed and bad human behavior under any form of government including democratic socialism.
Our present form of government is still the best going.
You'll NEVER see full blown Socialism in this country.
Never!

Yeah, I agree, but we make no laws at all, so insider trading, the secret buying and selling cds, and an economic recovery for wall street with the rest of our economy in shambles is the result. I tell you what you can do though, you can allow our most powerful business institutions like banks and insurance companies to operate as weasles creating a very low bar that most people will be happy to limbo under. What comes around goes around.

Oh by the way I'm not a socialist, if you think I am you never met the real thing!

 

[bugeye]

Buggy you crack me up they way you keep bringing Magnatar up in conversations about corruption and political contributions with regard to CDOs/CDSs and the financial collapse.
Apparently you don't know who Magnetar's favorite, and only political connection is.
And you have the gall to label others here as "dimwitted?" Or were you referring to yourself with that remark?

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2010...ar-capital-the-definition-of-compromised.html

So while you are railing against Magnetar and their corrupt ways, you admit you voted to put their political favorites in office.
Please note the sentence I emphasized with bold type in the article quoted.
That is the problem in a nutshell.

I have said that the financial reform bill stinks, and it came about when the Dems were in power. I've nver denied this, or that the health care reform law stinks because it fails to address the absurdly high costs of our system. Apparently these open statements made by me went over your head? But if you really think the Republican party is above being bought and sold you have not only drunk the cool aid but come back for seconds. The fact is there is little difference between the repubs and the dems they both worship money and are more than willing to sell our souls to get it. As I've said before, to buy the dems they have to write a lot of checks but to buy the repubs they only need to write one check. I consider making it as inconvient as possible for them to buy the gov to be the greatest blow I can strike for freedom that won't get me arrested! Also, consider who's appointees on the supreme court said that it is just fine for corporations to spend whatever they want to influence the elections, and where did they spend this new found 'judical political capital', putting in the 'easy to buy' party.

Wake up your perceptions have run away with reality!

 

[Jamie6.5]

So no admission of responsibility on your part, even after all the railing.
Just more chest thumping and finger pointing,...

And then you once more question my ties to reality. Even after I did your research for you, and directly tied your affronts to your limited knowledge, and demonstrated what your misguided politics have wrought on this country.
You have to stop allowing the left to spoon feed you, and do your own political legwork before stepping into the fray, or the voting booth/envelope.

Your elitism is showing,.... Again!

 

[bugeye]

That is a factually incorrect statement!

A result of the SEC not enforcing the plethora of laws, That Are In Fact On The Books.
The economy is on the up-swing, by the way.

I hate the corruption too. It's part of the human condition. Indeed enforcement of the laws would help immensely.

O.K. Please describe yourself as it relates to your posted political ideology?

Yes my first statement is pushing the point, howver, the trading of CDS, about a thousand trillion dollars worth at present, is not regulated and the holders are not required to even report what they are holding, even after the new reform law went into effect. Yet, you can't seem to grasp the point that we have a system unregulated to the point of absurdity? As to enforcing the laws on the books, that would requre constant investigation, and insider information, to bring a case to the point of prosecution. Such a level of checking in a game where it is made very easy to cheat is not possible. What you could do, however, to to make examples of the few cases you can prosecute but these are so ubber scale, like Enron, that all the daily petty criminals feel they are safe, and they are. Keep in mind no one has served any time for manipulating the housing market when that evidence is quite clear. In addition, the inmates of the financial asylum have been free to make their own rules, and what clever set of people couldn't figure out rules that make them rich if their stock and trade is moving money around. And since money can be made with little risk or action, why bother to make something, even though we are a large technological system that is currently incapable of even producting our own flat screen TVs! Talk about a vulnerable system!


To your last point I will engage in shorthand knowing full well that you will use the need for bevity as a source for further argument.
I favor a system in balance, where government, commerce, and the good of the public all have sway in our decision making process. I see each of these subsets as valuable to our system. Though I put a strong point on commerce including industry as I want my country to be as self sufficient as possible since it is large and able enough. Balance comes in when the interests of commerce create such a mindblowing fiasco like our current health care system, they need to be made to be more efficient and only the gov can do that, but our last health care law really favors commerce as the gov is owned by the money. Balance also comes in when the gov decides on something like having a war with Iraq for no reasonable reason, commerce stays slient because there is a buck to be made there, the media owned by commerce stays slient, millions of citizens march against it with no effect, and then the people are left to suffer with the consequences. Here the good of the public should have held sway and the people that brought us this war should be facing charges for irresponsible use of the publics money, 1 trillion so far in Iraq, or $10K per real taxpayer! So, I favor a system where people are held responsible so that we don't continue to do crazy things.

A socialist wants the good of the public to be foremost and wants the government to enforce this condition by freely manipulating commerce as a means to an end. A free marketeer wants the interests of commerce to rule, with a weak government and a belief that this will benefit the general public. Either of these points of view are not much into compromise with the basic principles, while my view is that compromise, with balance, is the best we can do.

So, now it's your turn define yourself?

 

[KalamaMark]

I'm tired of this thread, also. I could ignore it, but folks pissing on Unions as a target sticks in my craw as much as folks thinking that banning 'high capacity magazines' will fix anything. Same logic...different sides.

I think the whole system is corrupt and broken, and firmly entrenched in its ways. The two parties, and the 'TOOLS' they place before us have already been bought and paid for by the time they reach our ballot box.

The B.S. rhetoric spewed between the two sides tends to polarize the populace, and they identify and vote with one team or the other...but really, it doesn't matter who wins or loses, as it's a game where all the bettors lose, but BOTH the team owners laugh all the way to the bank.

Any Sh1tbirds here that proudly wear the 'Democrat' or 'Republican', 'Conservative' or 'Liberal' label would do well to take a deep, introspective look, and see how well they have done rallying behind their labels during winning seasons and losing seasons. My guess is, if they were open and honest, they would realize that they were just as phucked under one banner as the next....and the team rooting one way or the other was really just wasted thought and energy.

'Nuff said from me... but I'll let the great George Carlin finish...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q&feature=player_embedded

 

[bugeye]

Your rambling reads like it was run through a MixMaster.



I'm a true Independent, a Fiscal Conservative, Socially Centrist, and somewhat of a strong Federalist.



An historical perspective of my political history reads like this; "I was far to the left long enough to know that reality has a way of clearing one's mind of the fog that permeates the minds of the Left "

Man, I'm soo done in this thread!

Of course, anything that can't be said in a single line sounds like rambling to a person as vague as yourself.

 

[elsullo]

Slightly on topic: A billionaire has a THOUSAND millions of dollars of worth. One of the first billionaires in America was Jay Gould, a late-1800's "robber baron" tycoon of railroads and steel mills. He prospered by squeezing his workers to the point of mortal desperation. He was once asked if he had any fear of a rabble-led working class labor uprising against the wealthy. He answered approximately, "No. I can hire half of the working class to kill the other half!"

And so the robber barons set out to create the political ideology for that to happen, convincing working people of the fantasy that they too could become filthy rich, and that their allegiance was to the rich and not to their fellow workers.........................elsullo