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Why all the hate on laser grips?

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by JimmyS1985, Aug 23, 2011.

  1. JimmyS1985

    JimmyS1985 St.Louis Active Member

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    Im not talking about on this forum, but if guns comes up as a talking subject amongst me and a fellow enthusiast and I ever mention buying LG402 CTC grips for my Beretta M9 a lot of people immediately start talking down laser sights.

    I will admit that you should not become overly dependent on them and still be trained to use the iron sights if, for example, your battery runs out (Ive had mine for 2 years and it still works) but I can also see benefits that most people fail to highlight such as if your in a confined place and can't get in a stance to look down the iron sights, you can still accurately put "metal on meat" or center mass with the aid of a laser.

    The last guy I was talking to, I wasn't bothered at first but I think he didn't know a damn thing about laser sights despite acting like he did, because he said after going through a magazine the sights would be off. Mine take an Hexagonal wrench that came with the sights to adjust it and last time I had them checked I was told they were dead on despite firing several magazines through them.

    Not to mention I seem to get a better grip on the LG402 grips than I did the ones that came with the handgun from the factory.

    Oh well if anyone can answer why laser grips get such a bad reputation as being too gimmicky or actually tipping a fire fight in the bad guys favor, could someone please explain to me why?

    Also as a side note, does anyone know a range around St. Louis (asides antire) that DOESN'T charge like $17 just for an hour at the range? Antire is cheap, but you can't practice double tap or quick firing a magazine (range rules says you have to space time between shots of 3 seconds) due to it being a family oriented range, might scare kids shooting their fathers .22. And if you break a rule they get on the loud speaker and embarrass you in front of everyone. I would enjoy going shooting more often but can't find an affordable range. They hock the membership to you, but I don't reload and can't afford to shoot often enough to make a $200 or so membership be a worthwhile investment.

    Between ammunition, booth rental and $.50 a target, I spend about $60 if I go shooting, needless to say, I seldom shoot.
     
  2. mr45auto

    mr45auto Oregon City Member

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    Laser grips are a great tool but you should practice with them and practice with the irons and laser off as well. There is no downside to having them. I've been to Crimson Trace's factory and they dont skimp on quality control.

    My only and I repeat ONLY beef with crimson trace is that I cant have my VZ double diamonds fitted with a laser. ;)

    My wife's little LCP has a CT laser and I plan to put one on my SA Micro compact .45 as well. The place where the CT lasers will really come into their own is in a very up close fight or where you're down in a bad position. Index the dot and send it.

    On the ranges, well I've never been to St Louis but you need to find a place that will let you train a bit rather than just shoot. Take a good class that teaches combat shooting and you'll likely wind up with a better range at the same time.
     
  3. madcratebuilder

    madcratebuilder Ardenwald, OR Well-Known Member

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    I think the hate comes from those who have never used laser grips, can't afford them, or tried the use them for something other then the intended uses.

    I like the CT's I have on two HD fire arms, one revolver and one 1911. I can't think of a better situation then HD for using them.

    I don't understand gun hate at all. You can dislike a fire arm but you don't have to hate it, it's just a object. Personally I don't care for com-bloc fire arms but I don't go around hating them and telling anyone that has one it's a pos, even if it is;). One mans hate is another mans love.
     
  4. Grunwald

    Grunwald Out of that nut job colony of Seattle, WA Well-Known Member

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    Do you mean hate OF laser grips?
     
  5. Spitpatch

    Spitpatch Forest Grove, Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Laser grips (properly installed, and sighted) are a wonderful contribution to our shared sport. I would disagree with Mr45auto that "there is no down side", and heartily agree that they come into their own in the situations he described: close fight or when you are in a bad position. The most frequent "downside" that I have observed is that the majority (personal observations here, toward 5 or six other persons that have purchased them) of people do not take the time and effort (and it is some more than moderate effort) to truly zero them. They get frustrated with the little cone screws and allen wrench, quit when they start hitting a man silouette somewhere in the boiler room. In my usage (and I think the proper usage), I want that little star to indicate PRECISELY where my bullet's going. This demands patience with the adjustment, and adhering to one load for the gun. This "downside" is not a fault of the equipment, but a characteristic of its design, coupled with operator negelct.

    Another "downside" that I've observed in my own usage (and others') is that the dot diminishes in broad daylight at ranges beyond 20 yards or so, to the point where it is difficult to rapidly locate on anything but a dark target. Again, this is not a fault of the equipment, but merely a characteristic that needs to be understood. For close-quarter combat (for which these sights are truthfully designed), this is not a problem. Should the purchaser have intent of using them for hunting, it is a problem, along with the fact they are most normally not aligned vertically with the bore. (Laser coincidence with bullet path diverts as to windage as well as elevation at ranges other than that to which the sight has been precisely zeroed.)

    The very best practical and frequent use of laser sights that I have observed is the application my friend employs them for: He is a licenced State Trapper, has a laser grip installed on his Smith 60 3" .38, and when walking up to a coyote in a snare, he can pull that gun and put a 158 hardcast bullet in the dog's brainpan instantly, without raising the gun to his line of vision.

    I think it is admirable (toward the manufacturer) and interesting that here we have a product that is selling like hotcakes to people who will very most likely NEVER use it for its intended purpose. Marketing genius of monumental proportions.
     
  6. eldbillbo

    eldbillbo clackamas New world samurai and a redneck none the less Bronze Supporter

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    i don't understand why people would talk them down, i think they are a great tool and accessory and although not useful in all situations they have there place . Necessary ? well maybe, maybe not depends. Ask why so many guys have to have ar15s with a red dot on top of a scope with back up irons basically 3 sets of sights why? because it goes to 11? sort of, but each have their purpose . For outdoor daytime use they are pretty much useless but in a house or at night when you more likely to get robbed or attacked when seconds count its a extra tool thay may save your life, and i was told CT first started producing the micro lasers for the glock that they are a good Intimidation tool. a perp with a dot on their chest and told to freeze is more likely to freeze as they know they know that the bullet is going where that dot is and they are dead meat if they move.
     
  7. JimmyS1985

    JimmyS1985 St.Louis Active Member

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    Another thing Ive found with gun enthusiasts I encounter, if I talk about the only firearm in my collection because its all I can afford (guns are expensive) they don't like it for being a 9mm as if the round is too weak to kill a man. Makes me wonder how in the heck did NC Trooper Coates die from a .22 through the side of his vest and the guy he shot 5x with a .357 magnum lived, but 9mm is too weak to stop a bad guy.

    Ive been told my gun is for pussies by a police officer because I was using 9mm and he was using a glock .40 cal, I had no idea I could go so wrong in my purchasing decision by going with the one that the US military uses, but there is a lot of hate for that sidearm over the old one apparently.

    IIRC the FBI didn't lose the 1986 miami shoot-out because they were using 9mm, but because they were using revolvers, which is what created .40 cal as a standard round for LEO.
     
  8. EZLivin

    EZLivin SW of PDX Well-Known Member

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    +1

    I will never take the CT off my S&W .38 or Kahr 9.
     
  9. gcban

    gcban Tukwila, WA Active Member

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    Probably just the same reason some people dont like a certain brand of gun or ammunition. I have 4 Glocks, a Ruger LCP and a Ruger LC9 all with CT laser sights. I practice with and without the laser.

    I believe they are a great asset to have if you find yourself in that high stress situation and need to deploy your weapon. That red dot takes alot of the doubt away about where your firearm is aimed especially if you are not in a position to extend your arm for a proper front sight aim. Also could be a deterant that placing the red dot on the subject may be enough to make them change thier mind and actions, even better. Just my 2 cents. I am truly a fan of them. - G
     
  10. oasis618

    oasis618 Tacoma, Wa Active Member

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    I think they are a great training aid. I didn't realize just how shaky I am and how much my point of impact darts around until I bought my LCR Crimson Trace. I'm sure it doesn't help that it is a very short gun to begin with though.
     
  11. Skang

    Skang WA Well-Known Member

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    Just because some people don't like it, you shouldn't make decision base on that.

    They have their uses.
     
  12. optiontrigger

    optiontrigger Snohomish County, WA Member

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    I have a few of the CTC lasers and love them! I supplement their use with night sights and flashlights.

    With everything good (and expensive) there are the cheap Chinese rail-mounted knockoffs that are "just as good as". I think there are those that buy these POS and find that their new accessory can't handle the recoil or loses zero and instantly bad-mouth all lasers in general. You've also got the internet commandos that try to force their opinions on everyone else about the tactical disadvantages of using lasers, flashlights, night sights, shotguns, guns with/without second-strike capability, ad nauseum. Of course, they have countless hours of training behind the game controller so why argue?

    Advantages are that they are good as a training aid to see if you're flinching when pressing the trigger, shooting from a less-than-ideal position, and also for identifying a location in the dark. Disadvantages are that if you're moving with the laser on, the bad guy can see you, and if there are multiple people with lasers on, which one is yours?

    Either way, I believe that there are way more supporters of (quality) lasers out there than critics because an expensive accessory like that requires good stuff in order for guys like us to buy them - quality control, customer service, battery life, ergonomics/design, and most of all, accurate feedback from those who use it. Those that don't make the cut won't stay in business long or will resort to selling mass quantities of the cheap crap, creating another wave of haters.
     
  13. wjv

    wjv SW Washington State Active Member

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    Love having the CT sights on my House/CCW gun (S&W 442)
    Never cared either way, but as your eyes get older and you can't see the sight as well as you use to, you really appreciate being able to bring a gun on target easily and quickly. As a person who also wears glasses, what if I lose my glasses in an attack. Now I pull my gun and the sights are 100% useless! All I would be able to do is line up the top of the gun and hope for the best. Now I have that nice bright red dot to aim with!
     
  14. pokerace

    pokerace Newberg Well-Known Member

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    ct grips are great I have them on 5 diff. guns..
     
  15. rrojohnso

    rrojohnso Vancouver, WA Member

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    **sorry for the novel**
    First of all, officers are fueled on being macho, and the bigger the better! Regardless, if a perp is coming at you with a knife and you launch a bullet center-mass, whether a 9mm or a .40SW, he'll have a bad day. Any gun you can safely handle is the gun you should carry & train with (for some, .40SW is too much). If you're comfortable with a 9mm, then you're good to go. A person armed with a 9mm is better prepared than someone unarmed looking for protection. It used to be Portland Police issue .45ACP or 9MM as the weapons of choice for their members (that is the way it USED to be - not sure if it remains today).

    As for laser grips, I think a lot of it is marketing. You have different camps - some who swear by them, some who hate them, and some that don't understand them and don't care enough to try. Personally, I don't have any laser grips, and don't plan to buy lasers for my weapons. I’ve tried them on friend’s weapons, and they’re cool! But I would rather spend the money on ammo for training than on a laser. With enough practice, your weapon should become an extension of your body whether you have a laser or not. If you don’t train properly and are in a threat situation, are you going to keep your eye on your threat, or seek the dot on his chest? Remember, tunnel vision will set in. Is he running at you, or toward cover? Are you able to think about stepping off line while looking down the slide/barrel, also while trying to perform a third step thing by seeking a dot on his shirt? Are you concentrating more on visual cues for a distant dot, or seeking cover? What's in your back drop? What if there is smoke or fog in your environment? The source of the laser (your weapon) may become visible to the threat (if used carelessly under stress, just like a flash light source becomes a target it low light)!

    Managing your exposure, and limiting the amount of ‘brain calculations’ you need to make in a threat scenario is what helps you win the day. Lasers? To each his own, and I certainly wouldn’t be one to question another person's choice, but I know what works for me, and you should, too. If it's a laser you seek, I certainly wouldn't hold it against you.
     
  16. Misterbill

    Misterbill Yakima County, Washington New Member

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    Never heard anyone talking them down tbh.

    I won't let new shooters use them in my classes for obvious reasons (They need to learn iron sights first) but I can't see why anyone would object to them.

    Now really crappy laser sights, well, that's a product quality thing, not a type of product thing.
     
  17. Scott

    Scott Battle Ground Well-Known Member

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    I just think they are too expensive for what they are. You could get a Glock for the same price.

    Could buy a lot of things better than a little red light.
     
  18. OregonTJ

    OregonTJ Willamette Valley New Member

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    I have a CTC on my LCP and like it.....
     
  19. mjbskwim

    mjbskwim Salmon,Idaho Well-Known Member

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    I kind of sold a gun to a guy,while not working for the gun store,because of the laser grips.
    I told him he needed to get used to holding the gun right,so as to put it on target instantly.So I would call an object and point the laser without aiming the gun by it's sites. He bought the gun,right there
    It's actually a good training devise in that respect.

    But this would be me
    They are a little expensive for me