Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

Who are they kidding? "Radical Anti-tax Groups Growing Threat, Say Law Enforcement"

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by CharlesAFerg, Feb 19, 2010.

  1. CharlesAFerg

    CharlesAFerg Beaverton Active Member

    Messages:
    1,409
    Likes Received:
    24
    Sorry, but I don't buy it. I see some rhetoric, but I don't see the extremism any more prevalent than the environmental terrorists, white supremacists, or anti-gunners.

    Islamic fundamentalism is what we should be addressing as the most significant threat at this point. Well, besides issues of domestic politics such as gun control, and keeping these issues from getting out of control, causing these types of people to go nuts.

    Regarding the article, though, how in the **** is he blaming the IRS when he's got a plane? He didn't pay those taxes for nothing, he obviously had a spending problem if he spent the rest of his income...


    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,586904,00.html

    Joseph Stack, the 53-year-old software engineer who crashed his small plane into a seven-story office building in Austin, Texas, was part of a growing, violent anti-tax and anti-government movement that has become increasingly alarming to law enforcement agencies.

    Stack, who torched his home Thursday morning before setting out on his suicide flight, was fueled by his hatred of the Internal Revenue Service, which had offices and employed nearly 200 workers in the building.

    SLIDESHOW: Small Plane Crashes Into Austin Office Building

    In his wake he left a rambling and lengthy online manifesto in which he railed against big government, bank bailouts and the IRS and revealed his decades-long involvement in the anti-tax movement and the evolution of his beliefs.

    Click to read the "manifesto" published on Stack's Web site.

    Experts are pointing to the incident as further evidence of what they say is a proliferation of anti-government militia groups.

    "There is a real rage out there, and this terrible attack may be a reflection of that," Mark Potok, the director of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project, said in a statement to FOXNews.com. The SPLC has been studying the resurgence in anti-government militias and groups, which it attributes to a perfect storm of economic, political and social factors.

    "There's been an explosive growth of anti-government militias and so-called Patriot groups over the past year, and the central idea of many of them is that taxes are completely illegitimate," Potok said.

    There was an immediate response to Stack's violent act on anti-government and anti-tax blogs, and on Facebook, where multiple fan pages attracted hundreds of followers within hours of the plane crash.

    "Half of them are making this guy into a hero, that's scary stuff. The other half is saying that this guy's a victim," said J.J. MacNab, a Maryland-based insurance analyst who has testified before Congress on the anti-tax movement and is writing a book on the subject.

    Related StoriesFriends Didn't See Texas Pilot's Passion for Tax Feud
    Troubling Portrait Emerges of Pilot Who Crashed Into Texas Building
    Glass Worker Turns Hero After Plane Crashes Into Texas Building
    Witnesses Recall Plane Hitting Texas Building
    RAW DATA: Joseph Stack Suicide Manifesto
    She said anti-tax, anti-government protesters did not condone Stack setting his house on fire, "but the tax protest movement is not condemning him."

    Tax protesters have a history of violence against the IRS, MacNab said. But she said Stack's method of attack - a suicide mission - was unusual. The anti-tax protester's favorite weapon, she said, is a bomb.

    "He is not your typical tax protester, but he got angry like the rest of them," MacNab told FOXNews.com. "He's had lots and lots of tax problems, spanning back to the mid-1980s."

    According to the SPLC, there were five domestic terrorist plots against the IRS between 1995 and 2009; an IRS building in Austin was the target of a plot 15 years ago.

    "In the 1990s, the combustible mix of rising antigovernment anger and the growth in militias was a recipe for disaster that ultimately resulted in the bombing of the Murrah Federal Building by Timothy McVeigh, who was motivated by antigovernment hatred," read a blog post on SPLC's Web site after Stack's attack.

    Stack's manifesto offers insight into his personal journey as a tax protester - and into the large and growing movement that attracted him.

    Passages of Stack's manifesto suggest that he was involved in a notorious home church scheme that was popular in the part of California where he lived before he moved to Texas, MacNab said.

    Stack wrote that he was part of a group who held tax code readings and "zeroed in on a section relating to the wonderful 'exemptions' that make institutions like the vulgar, corrupt Catholic Church so incredibly wealthy."

    He said they had "the best high-paid experienced tax lawyers in the business."

    MacNab said Stack likely was referring to a notorious scheme run by lawyers William Drexler and Jerome Daly. It was based on the idea that citizens could establish themselves as a church and gain the same tax exemptions afforded to religious institutions.

    The scheme didn't work, and Drexler and Daly were disbarred and imprisoned. If this was the operation Stack was referring to, it may have been a turning point in his life. He wrote:

    "That little lesson in patriotism cost me $40,000+, 10 years of my life, and set my
    retirement plans back to 0. It made me realize for the first time that I live in a country with an ideology that is based on a total and complete lie."

    This inspired him to take action, write to politicians and meet with likeminded anti-tax protesters. He wrote: "I spent countless hours on the L.A. freeways driving to meetings and any and all of the disorganized professional groups who were attempting to mount a campaign against this atrocity."

    His anti-tax and anti-government beliefs may also have been fueled by Section 1706, an obscure and relatively unknown change in the tax code that focused on his industry and went into effect in 1986. Section 1706 essentially removed technical workers like software engineers from a safe haven classification of "self-employed consultant," making it easier for the IRS to challenge how Information Technology companies classified their employers.

    An association of IT companies and industry professionals, now called TechServe Alliance, was created to protest the changes in tax law that it says singled out the industry.

    "It made the whole business riskier for people using independent contractors because it favored the so-called employment business model," Mark Roberts, TechServe CEO, told FoxNews.com. "It created havoc on a number of folks."

    Roberts was quick to condemned Stack's behavior as "an act of a very, very sick individual."

    "I don't see a long-term lasting effect, just a troubled wayward person acting in response to a legitimate issue. But I don't think that actually impacts the issue," Roberts said.

    Noting that Section 1706 was passed years ago, he added: "We still resent the fact that it singles out the industry, but folks have basically learned to adapt. It's kind of been awhile since this was a burning issue in the industry."
     
  2. wawaverider

    wawaverider PDX, OR Member

    Messages:
    60
    Likes Received:
    0
    yeah, I know being against big government and out of control spending and taxes are troubling, radical extremists. MacNab says "the anti-tax protestors favorite weapon is a bomb"????? I thought it was tea parties? Wonder how her book will portray the Founding Fathers?

    I'm sure the left will work this to their benefit since they are scared of the tea party movement.
     
  3. The Quiet Man

    The Quiet Man rural Washington County, Oregon Active Member

    Messages:
    380
    Likes Received:
    36
    The more and faster the government can seperate and demonize segments of society, the easier it is to gain the support of the Sheeple in "controlling" them. The truth is just "inconvenient".
     
  4. Partsproduction

    Partsproduction Tillamook Oregon Active Member

    Messages:
    824
    Likes Received:
    187
    The Southern Poverty Law Center is of more concern to me about our country's future than tax protesters are.
     
  5. matt_w

    matt_w Hillsboro, OR Active Member

    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    60
    The SPLC is a far-left think tank that releases anti-militia stuff all the time. The Foxnews article is horribly written. It looks like someone just paraphrased it because they needed an article quickly.
     
  6. PeakResources

    PeakResources Portland (past) Colorado (now) Member

    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    1
    Isn't our government here for us? This looks to me as if it's a theme promoted by those in power. Cast those who think government has gotten too big and that federal income taxes aren't supported by the Constitution as "anti-government radicals" and you start to control them. Label them "terrorists" and maybe we can bring the might of the US Military industrial complex against them. The government use of force and coercion is a concern to me larger than those who have been trying (and failing) to fight against what they believe is an out-of-control government breaking the backs of the working man. Stories like this is meant to keep those who don't want the tax burden in line, and meant to keep law enforcement (who are mostly good guys trying to protect their communities) motivated against such individuals and groups.
     
  7. BigNickShooting

    BigNickShooting Centralia, WA Active Member

    Messages:
    753
    Likes Received:
    114
    "There's been an explosive growth of anti-government militias and so-called Patriot groups over the past year...."


    Maybe somebody in the Government should ask themselves: Maybe we're doing something wrong and people will revolt !!"
     
  8. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,646
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    I don't necessarily agree or disagree with anything that's said here. But I would argue that flying a plane into a building is a serious escalation of aggressions. That means that anti-tax extremists (not people who don't like taxes, but extremists) have put themselves inline with eco-terrorists, ethnic extremist groups (white supremacists and other ethnic groups), and fundamental religious terrorists (both Islamic and, I'm embarrassed to say, Christian fundamentalists) as groups willing to do violence in order to advance their cause.

    All we can hope was that this guy was an anomaly and not the norm. We don't need him speaking for libertarians and other less-tax groups any more than we need gang bangers speaking for the gun owners of America...

    Perhaps it would be better for all of us (yes, this is a pipe dream) if they said "Maybe we're doing some things wrong and need to re-evaluate and start listening to our people. Maybe we need to try a different direction."

    I'm sorry, but even though I own enough guns to hold my own, I have no overwhelming desire to use them unless I have to. I would just assume things change peacefully.
     
  9. PeakResources

    PeakResources Portland (past) Colorado (now) Member

    Messages:
    172
    Likes Received:
    1
    I agree that driving a plan into a building is extremism. Unfortunately, authorities will use this as evidence to say "we have to monitor all those who think the tax burden is unjust because they could use planes, bombs, or other methods of terrorism to cause harm to others." We need peaceful methods of change that support individuals, which our Constitution supports.
     
  10. bugeye

    bugeye Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,098
    Likes Received:
    12
    You have to have to make Stack just plain nuts first, and anthing else second. He seems just another angry guy who was only capable of seeing himself as a blameless victim of the government, corporations, the unjust playing field, and maybe even sunspots! What was lacking in his character was an ability to take responsibilty for his life and not blame something else for his failures. And based on the many of the posts I've read on this forum, this is a lesson many of us should learn something from.

    This forum is filled with angry, vague posts that do not much differ from sections of this dead maniacs manifesto.
     
  11. onearmedswordsman

    onearmedswordsman Hillsboro, OR Member

    Messages:
    363
    Likes Received:
    1
    I don’t see an anti-tax extremist here. This is what I see: 30 years ago, a young, ambitious, hard working and talented s/w developer had a dream: work hard, be his own boss, make a lot of money, and retire young. In 1986, Section 1706 shattered his dreams. He decided to fight. His new dream, beat the system, stick it to the Man. After 23 years, he lost all hope. Utterly frustrated, he got convinced he can’t achieve any of his dreams, and decided to call it quits and go down in flames with a big bang, to make a statement.

    He got fixated, he was deceived by his own ambition. All that energy, all that drive, focused on the wrong goals. If only…
     
  12. slingshot1943

    slingshot1943 salem or Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,085
    Likes Received:
    321
    This country's leftists will try to discredit and criminalise anyone opposed to them.
     
  13. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,108
    Likes Received:
    834
    I've been really concerned about the rash of so many planes being flown into IRS offices. I mean, if it were just one isolated incident it would be different.

    It's high time we confiscated all airplanes, revoked all pilot's licenses and shot all pilots. This dangerous trend has to stop.

    Besides, terrorists have been using our large commercial planes in actual and attempted terrorist acts. The only way we'll have any personal safety is to get rid of all airplanes and all pilots.
     
  14. MountainBear

    MountainBear Sweet Home, OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,646
    Likes Received:
    2,371
    The means were different, but its not the first time an anti-government extremist attempted to destroy a federal building. Anyone remember Oklahoma City?

    And when this pilot turned to violence, he became an extremist, otherwise he could have lost hope and crashed into a mountain. No, he wanted to take people out with him. That's terrorism. We so often get fixated on radical islamic fundamentalists as terrorists. We get fixated on beards, turbans, dark skin, and the Koran. We need to remember that this was still an act of terrorism. I don't care what he looked like or what his motivation was.

    The government needs to re-evaluate why so many otherwise normal rational people are suddenly adopting radical terrorist acts to express themselves. Time for a hard look at what they're doing...
     
  15. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,108
    Likes Received:
    834
    I disagree that it's terrorism. I hold that terrorism can be committed only by a group. Otherwise it's just murder. The only way you can terrorize is to conspire with others to make people believe that "there's more where that came from." Otherwise, the perp is just dead or captured and it's over, as was the case in Oklahoma. I can't link the Oklahoma bombing to this as it was 15 years ago and doesn't contribute to a rash of acts or even a continuation of acts.

    I contend that when this pilot resorted to killing, he became just another evil and crazy murderer. While his choice of weapon was unique, I don't see him as being any different from the guy who killed the four police officers near Seattle. I just see a cold blooded killer, in the mould of many we've had in the past.

    I believe that I am only terrorized if I believe that continuing acts are probable, and perhaps against me.
     
  16. matt_w

    matt_w Hillsboro, OR Active Member

    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    60
    When a town faces high unemployment, the crime rate increases as people get desperate. Is it their fault or the fault that there are no jobs? Probably both.

    Same can be said for when there is large scale government oppression and corruption and acts like this result.
     
  17. Gunner3456

    Gunner3456 Salem Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,108
    Likes Received:
    834
    Answer me this. Why, during the Great Depression, did people buck up and do the best they could, and stay honest, when today soaring crime is blamed on circumstances?

    An honest man won't commit crimes against you even when he's hungry.

    People have changed. It's called a feeling of entitlement, and it's brought about partly by the discussion of and distribution of "entitlements."

    75 years ago people didn't feel entitled. They felt obligated. Today most of us still feel obligated, but a lot more feel entitled.

    75 years ago no one had heard of welfare or food stamps or government housing or medicaid or...
     
  18. wakejoe

    wakejoe Beaverton, OR Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,024
    Likes Received:
    132
    :thumbup:

    Dead on.
     
  19. Sasquatchvnv

    Sasquatchvnv Port Orchard Active Member

    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    171
    +1 there! SPLC always seem to pop up just where some anti-american sentiment is required to push the agenda...
     
  20. matt_w

    matt_w Hillsboro, OR Active Member

    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    60
    I'm not arguing with that at all (although the Great Depression is somewhat the exception to the rule in this case). Was just pointing out that both sides blame eachother while both sides are to blame.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.