Who are they kidding? "Radical Anti-tax Groups Growing Threat, Say Law Enforcement"

[8ball]

People are getting really pissed off, because a lot of the problems we are facing are due to our own government. Things have gotten out of hand entirely.

Such as?

The government dictates pretty much anything you do. They have raised taxes to the point where people can't hardly survive anymore.

US personal taxes are amongst the lowest in the world (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world) and US personal income taxes have been on a downward trend for fifty years (source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#History_of_top_rates.5B21.5D).

So what taxes is it that you are concerned about?

 

[Gunner3456]

So what taxes is it that you are concerned about?

I don't think that income taxes were all that was of concern. For instance, the "fees" to build a new home on acreage can run you $20k now - that's permit fees and inspection fees which I consider a tax. It makes it impossible to just toss up a place to live on your own on a low budget.

If you own a business, you don't ask that question.

Off topic, but it isn't just taxes. It's regulations too. It's just hard for someone to get started compared to 30 years ago. Strict zoning regs have driven up the cost of finding a place to put a business, for instance. That's not a tax, but it has the same negative impact on a new business.

In effect, we've lost our freedom and we didn't even see it go. "Government caused costs" if you will.

$.02

 

[willseeker]

Such as?

Such as, getting involved in a war that is clearly to protect corporate interests.


Willl

 

[OcelotZ3]

Max marginal tax rate for US Business taxes track pretty closely with the max marginal tax rate for personal income taxes, too. So it's not that business taxes are at their largest rate either, they have also come down over time. And then there is offshore sheltering in addition, which further lowers their taxable income, but we won't go there for now.

http://www.personal.psu.edu/sjh11/TCTaxBits/OtherTaxBits/TaxRates.shtml

However, one thing that all of these tables seem do not seem to track is the payroll tax, which has been going up over time, so that would have to be added to the personal income tax rate to get an idea of the total taxes paid by an individual over time.

Here is a table:

http://www.ssa.gov/OACT/ProgData/taxRates.html

 

[OcelotZ3]

Strict zoning regs have driven up the cost of finding a place to put a business, for instance.

Yeah, but it's nice knowing a rendering plant can't be put in next door...

Regarding regulations, here's an example of one I wouldn't mind having added to our city laws.

Our neighbor moved in to an established city neighborhood. The house came with a high-efficiency heat pump. But he wants to heat with wood. This is in an in-town cul-de-sac which doesn't get wind in the winter time. So the smoke comes down into the cul-de-sac and stays. Their house is up on a hill so the smoke settles lower than their house & thus not affecting them at all. He either burns unseasoned wood, or is burning incorrectly, because you can almost always see the bluish smoke coming out of his chimney and rolling down over his roof and into the street. The smoke irritates our throats & eyes & is constant throughout the winter, spring & fall. Three neighbors have moved out citing the smoke as an issue. All (and me too) have politely asked him to stop burning and the response is to go pound sand... There are no city or county laws regulating chimney smoke.

So, yes, regulations increase over time, but those are often in response to abuses. If neighbors would just act like good neighbors I'm sure lots of these wouldn't be necessary.

 

[8ball]

Such as, getting involved in a war that is clearly to protect corporate interests.

Agreed 100%. But the OP didn't mention that, and the post was made in 2010, not 2003.

 

[CharlesAFerg]

I disagree that it's terrorism. I hold that terrorism can be committed only by a group. Otherwise it's just murder. The only way you can terrorize is to conspire with others to make people believe that "there's more where that came from." Otherwise, the perp is just dead or captured and it's over, as was the case in Oklahoma. I can't link the Oklahoma bombing to this as it was 15 years ago and doesn't contribute to a rash of acts or even a continuation of acts.

I contend that when this pilot resorted to killing, he became just another evil and crazy murderer. While his choice of weapon was unique, I don't see him as being any different from the guy who killed the four police officers near Seattle. I just see a cold blooded killer, in the mould of many we've had in the past.

I believe that I am only terrorized if I believe that continuing acts are probable, and perhaps against me.

Agreed, and I think you bring up a very, very good point regarding terrorism. I have done a lot of thinking regarding the definition of terrorism, terrorist, guerrilla fighter/warfare, unconventional warfare, etc. These terms have been misused so much, I feel that I must make them clearer to people. It's like "assult rifle" to many of you.

Answer me this. Why, during the Great Depression, did people buck up and do the best they could, and stay honest, when today soaring crime is blamed on circumstances?

An honest man won't commit crimes against you even when he's hungry.

People have changed. It's called a feeling of entitlement, and it's brought about partly by the discussion of and distribution of "entitlements."

75 years ago people didn't feel entitled. They felt obligated. Today most of us still feel obligated, but a lot more feel entitled.

75 years ago no one had heard of welfare or food stamps or government housing or medicaid or...

Again, i completely agree.

I own guns for recreation, hunting, and self-defense. I do not own guns because I fear my government.

I do not agree, because I do not feel people own weapons in fear of their government, but to keep their government in relative harmony with them. Still, the civilian populations on the USA has become so neutered, that armed rebellion against an oppressive government is quite a terrible thing to even bring up, considering the bloodbath that would ensue.

Still, it's a deterrent. The reason has never been fear, it's a responsibility to practice your rights. I don't vote because I fear the government. Now do you see how that's relevant? I dislike the wording, and feel it poorly reflects the true reason for the 2nd ammendment. To emphasize hunting, defense, or sport ahead of it's clear meaning in the constitution shows that one may have forgotten why the 2nd ammendment was placed where it is for a very specific reason.

 

[CharlesAFerg]

Such as?



US personal taxes are amongst the lowest in the world (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world) and US personal income taxes have been on a downward trend for fifty years (source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#History_of_top_rates.5B21.5D).

So what taxes is it that you are concerned about?

Now there's a fallacious argument if I have ever heard one.

You're not being taxed nearly as much as Europe, and I'm going to leave out plenty of other relevant topics, so you'll be fine! Ignore it, it could be worse! In fact, it will be worse, just not yet!

 

[MountainBear]

I do not agree, because I do not feel people own weapons in fear of their government, but to keep their government in relative harmony with them. Still, the civilian populations on the USA has become so neutered, that armed rebellion against an oppressive government is quite a terrible thing to even bring up, considering the bloodbath that would ensue.

Still, it's a deterrent. The reason has never been fear, it's a responsibility to practice your rights. I don't vote because I fear the government. Now do you see how that's relevant? I dislike the wording, and feel it poorly reflects the true reason for the 2nd ammendment. To emphasize hunting, defense, or sport ahead of it's clear meaning in the constitution shows that one may have forgotten why the 2nd ammendment was placed where it is for a very specific reason.

I'm not sure I'll lose any sleep over you guys not agreeing with me. I'm getting tired of arguing with the wall, so I'll leave this thread to the social and political commentators. I am a but a lowly humble gunsmith...

 

[8ball]

I don't think that income taxes were all that was of concern. For instance, the "fees" to build a new home on acreage can run you $20k now - that's permit fees and inspection fees which I consider a tax. It makes it impossible to just toss up a place to live on your own on a low budget.

If you own a business, you don't ask that question.

Off topic, but it isn't just taxes. It's regulations too. It's just hard for someone to get started compared to 30 years ago. Strict zoning regs have driven up the cost of finding a place to put a business, for instance. That's not a tax, but it has the same negative impact on a new business.

The OP's specific quote was that "government has raised taxes".

I bet folks in Haiti are wishing they had construction inspectors and a uniform building code right now.

BTW, I've owned several businesses in Seattle and opened my most recent one in 2006. I had no problems locating it a couple of miles from my house in King County. I'm relocating it to downtown Seattle soon and don't anticipate any problems either. If anything, the economic downturn has made it easier to start a business because salaries and rents are down. Of course, so is demand for most things as well.

 

[8ball]

Now there's a fallacious argument if I have ever heard one.

You're not being taxed nearly as much as Europe, and I'm going to leave out plenty of other relevant topics, so you'll be fine! Ignore it, it could be worse! In fact, it will be worse, just not yet!

Which ignores the downward trend for US taxes...

 

[CharlesAFerg]

Which ignores the downward trend for US taxes...

I don't think that income taxes were all that was of concern. For instance, the "fees" to build a new home on acreage can run you $20k now - that's permit fees and inspection fees which I consider a tax. It makes it impossible to just toss up a place to live on your own on a low budget.

If you own a business, you don't ask that question.

Off topic, but it isn't just taxes. It's regulations too. It's just hard for someone to get started compared to 30 years ago. Strict zoning regs have driven up the cost of finding a place to put a business, for instance. That's not a tax, but it has the same negative impact on a new business.

In effect, we've lost our freedom and we didn't even see it go. "Government caused costs" if you will.

$.02

Exactly.

He obviously isn't taking into account inflation, costs of living, government regulations. Only income taxes, which obviously doesn't show the whole picture. Alternatively, he is basically saying that it's not as bad as it should be, so we should dismiss it? ludacris. Ignorance is not bliss when it comes to taxation.

What about the Social Security tax? My God, could they take more out of laborer's paychecks?

Anyway, here's a nifty tool.
http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

 

[longcolt]

I disagree that it's terrorism. I hold that terrorism can be committed only by a group. Otherwise it's just murder. The only way you can terrorize is to conspire with others to make people believe that "there's more where that came from." Otherwise, the perp is just dead or captured and it's over, as was the case in Oklahoma. I can't link the Oklahoma bombing to this as it was 15 years ago and doesn't contribute to a rash of acts or even a continuation of acts.

I contend that when this pilot resorted to killing, he became just another evil and crazy murderer. While his choice of weapon was unique, I don't see him as being any different from the guy who killed the four police officers near Seattle. I just see a cold blooded killer, in the mould of many we've had in the past.

I believe that I am only terrorized if I believe that continuing acts are probable, and perhaps against me.

I agree completely. Many folks are angry about growing government control, oppressive taxation, etc, and they may grumple about it and get out and vote for candidates that will change things for the better.

To think bad thoughts in one thing and most do, but to take action and lash out just because of that anger is crossing the line and then you become a common criminal.

 

[torpedoman]

you mean people are getting upset that the government is taking their hard earned money and wasting it , giving it away to big banks, or using it to subside illegal immigrants who are taking jobs that they need. surely you jest.

 

[MikeE]

Answer me this. Why, during the Great Depression, did people buck up and do the best they could, and stay honest, when today soaring crime is blamed on circumstances?

An honest man won't commit crimes against you even when he's hungry.

People have changed. It's called a feeling of entitlement, and it's brought about partly by the discussion of and distribution of "entitlements."

75 years ago people didn't feel entitled. They felt obligated. Today most of us still feel obligated, but a lot more feel entitled.

75 years ago no one had heard of welfare or food stamps or government housing or medicaid or...

People didn't 'just suck it up' during the Great Depression, that's a myth from The Waltons or Walt Disney.
In Western Pennsylvannia, out of work miners seized company land .
and ran their own coal operations with seized equipment, for years.
Unemployed Committees organized across the country. They would move people's possessions back into their homes after the Sheriff evicted them.
In Iowa, farm foreclosures were halted after mobs of farm folk threatened to lynch county officials.
There was a general strike in San Francisco, with longshoremen getting shot down by police.
There was a general strike in Minneapolis, with striking Teamsters smashing the local riot squads.
There was a general strike of textile workers in the south, the largest strike in US history, violently suppressed.
Dust Bowl refugees in California engaged in pitched battles with goons from the growers associations, who modeled their organizations on Mussolini's fascist bands.
We all should know about the sit down strikes At GM and Ford, where workers took over their factories..
Coal miners fought an armed labor war with the owners in West Virginia and Kentucky from the 1920's into the 40's.
Today's reactions to the economic crash are tame. Americans are cowed, don't know how to get together and fight for justice.
During the Depression, the MSM of the day constantly denigrated the young people, who were leading these uprisings. When WWII came along, these same young people went into the military and kicked *** in Europe and the Pacific. Of course, then everyone called them heroes.

 

[therifleman]

Today many here on this forum will call them terrorists

 

[Wheeler44]

People have changed. It's called a feeling of entitlement, and it's brought about partly by the discussion of and distribution of "entitlements."

75 years ago people didn't feel entitled. They felt obligated. Today most of us still feel obligated, but a lot more feel entitled.

75 years ago no one had heard of welfare or food stamps or government housing or medicaid or...

Ahh yes the good ol' days........When men were men and the women all beautiful...Fruit fell from the trees and.. and.. and.. Hey..wait a minute......

78 years ago the federal Gov't "bailed out the railroads and banks (Hoover's Reconstruction Finance Corporation) ..At the same time the "Bonus Army" marched on D.C. demanded money and subsequently were attacked by US Armed Forces....A year later FDR had his "New Deal" and the "Hundred Days"...Starting such programs as the Civilian Conservation Corps and the Agricultural Adjustment Administration ( A real bad farm subsidy...one of many really) and started the Tennessee Valley Authority, one of the first attempts of the Fed Gov. to run businesses..not so much for money but for jobs creation..It also saw the creation of the FDIC ( to entice depositors back into the failed banking system), The Home Owners Loan Corp.(a bailout for homeowners with mortgage problems) the SEC and a number of programs called "alphabet soup" for all of the acronyms...including the FERA our nations first "public welfare" given $500 Million to distribute to the "most destitute"..In fact the 100 days changed the Fed Gov. from a small body that really didn't touch most folks lives to a behemoth bureaucracy that effected almost every bodies life....

But hey, that was 78 years ago..

W44

 

[Jaybo]

And now that were finally on page 8... Can anyone please explain how this affects us gun owners, and our rights to own firearms, or our right to carry firearms... or any firearm related issue involving "taxes" or crashing planes into buildings??????

 

[Gunner3456]

People didn't 'just suck it up' during the Great Depression, that's a myth from The Waltons or Walt Disney.
In Western Pennsylvannia, out of work miners seized company land .
and ran their own coal operations with seized equipment, for years.
Unemployed Committees organized across the country. They would move people's possessions back into their homes after the Sheriff evicted them.
In Iowa, farm foreclosures were halted after mobs of farm folk threatened to lynch county officials.
There was a general strike in San Francisco, with longshoremen getting shot down by police.
There was a general strike in Minneapolis, with striking Teamsters smashing the local riot squads.
There was a general strike of textile workers in the south, the largest strike in US history, violently suppressed.
Dust Bowl refugees in California engaged in pitched battles with goons from the growers associations, who modeled their organizations on Mussolini's fascist bands.
We all should know about the sit down strikes At GM and Ford, where workers took over their factories..
Coal miners fought an armed labor war with the owners in West Virginia and Kentucky from the 1920's into the 40's.
Today's reactions to the economic crash are tame. Americans are cowed, don't know how to get together and fight for justice.
During the Depression, the MSM of the day constantly denigrated the young people, who were leading these uprisings. When WWII came along, these same young people went into the military and kicked *** in Europe and the Pacific. Of course, then everyone called them heroes.

You're in all cases talking about organized labor, not the unemployed of the Depression. I find that interesting too, but it has nothing to do with the federal "entitlement programs" we have today, the resultant taxes, and that they didn't exist during the Great Depression, which is what was being discussed.

If you want to talk about unions and union wars, and how the coal miners were the original "red necks" because they wore red bandannas to show solidarity against the mine owners and their hired goons, go ahead.

It's just that you are way off-topic from taxes and some tax rebellion we have today. See thread title.

 

[Gunner3456]

And now that were finally on page 8... Can anyone please explain how this affects us gun owners, and our rights to own firearms, or our right to carry firearms... or any firearm related issue involving "taxes" or crashing planes into buildings??????

If you're on page 8, you found six more pages than I did. I'm on page 2.

For me it's not our rights to carry arms. It's our need to be armed if the SHTF. That's what I'm getting out of this thread.

$.02