Poll: White light skill level

[Nosferatu]

Weird. I managed to learn how to shine a flashlight at things without the help from a high-speed, low-drag operator.

Having done plenty of night shoots, it didn't take anyone more than a few seconds to figure out how to use a flashlight, whether it was strapped to their gun or not.

 

[American123]

Call me crazy, but I learned how to use a flashlight when I was a small child. Let's not overthink this.

Put light on what you want to see. Turn light off when you don't want others to see your light. Put the light in the eyes of who you want to have a hard time seeing…

If we are talking about gunfire exchanges, lights can give away your position and attract gunfire, be aware. If we are talking about being super sneaky, even if the light is off it can give away your position because if someone is pointing light at your direction and you are pointing your off-light at them, the lens/cone can catch and reflect that light back to them.

 

[MasterChief]

Does noone want to ask the obvious snowflake question?



What about black lights / infrared / lasers matter too

 

[RBB4ME]

Weird. I managed to learn how to shine a flashlight at things without the help from a high-speed, low-drag operator.

Having done plenty of night shoots, it didn't take anyone more than a few seconds to figure out how to use a flashlight, whether it was strapped to their gun or not.

Yep, I'm just weird.

If you have never been ripped between the eyes with a 150 lumen light (minimum) and had your OODA Loop restarted, hidden the shadow lines in a low-light search or tried to read the lighting conditions you are in, I guess shining a light onto a static paper target and then shooting at it is pretty awesome.

Carry on with your bad self. No need for any further training.

Does noone want to ask the obvious snowflake question?



What about black lights / infrared / lasers matter too

What does this mean? Are black light, infrared and lasers EDC tools? If you care, please explain. Or is this more troll foolishness?

 

[MasterChief]

They absolutely are tools just as much as white light

Infrared scares me a lot more than white light....

 

[RBB4ME]

They absolutely are tools just as much as white light

Infrared scares me a lot more than white light....

Interesting. The point of training and practice is to overcome being scared.

Never heard of EDC infrared or black light tools. Would be interested in learning more about the options available. Do you have websites for review?

Thanks to all who responded!

 

[American123]

Yep, I'm just weird.

If you have never been ripped between the eyes with a 150 lumen light (minimum) and had your OODA Loop restarted, hidden the shadow lines in a low-light search or tried to read the lighting conditions you are in, I guess shining a light onto a static paper target and then shooting at it is pretty awesome.

Carry on with your bad self. No need for any further training.


What does this mean? Are black light, infrared and lasers EDC tools? If you care, please explain. Or is this more troll foolishness?

Probably one of the bigger training issues with white lights is simply the concept that you are telegraphing everywhere you go and everywhere you look while the light is on. For example, if you are inside a home and moving around with a light with a potential adversary somewhere in the home your light will telegraph the direction you will be going everywhere you go if you have it on while you are moving around. The person in the home will easily be able to be aware of your arrival before you get there and be able to wait in ambush. It would be far better off to #1 not search the house if possible and wait in your own position of ambush and #2, if you do search the house turn on overhead lights ahead of you because it reduces the advantage they have over you because the overhead light won't telegraph your movements nearly as much and you will be able to see what is happening in the house far better than with just a flashlight.

Getting bright lights shined in your face is effective, to a point. Bullets being attracted to flashlights is a real thing, and using a flashlight and staying in the same location is a good way to catch one. Shooting in the direction of muzzle flash is a time-proven tactic too but that is more for rifle engagements. Context is key here, I think a lot of commenters are using a lens of varying degrees of context and that is why there are varying degrees of commentary. As for me, I have not paid for anyone to teach me about using a flashlight, but I am very confident in my competence of how to employ them.

 

[MasterChief]

As the above post is more eloquent......I'm not worried about simple bright lights.....if you have situational awareness and critical thinking....and always have a plan....white lights matter..... infrared is more worrisome. And NV....but I'll try to stay on topic.

 

[American123]

As the above post is more eloquent......I'm not worried about simple bright lights.....if you have situational awareness and critical thinking....and always have a plan....white lights matter..... infrared is more worrisome. And NV....but I'll try to stay on topic.

Yeah dude, get your nerd bubblegum out of here with that NV commentary, the OP clearly talked about White lights - lol
Along that tangeant through. At this time in the technology game if you don't own NV and can't see IR you're a daytime only person from an engagement standpoint because using any light at night when facing people with NV is game over. Then there's thermal, and those factors.

I presumed the OP was talking about WL from more of a carry gun standpoint and not the secret squirrel business you are referencing.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Well OK! I personally hate weapon-mounted lights for the reasons I alluded to. They are pretty good for front end recoil reduction on a handgun. But from your opponent's perspective, the beam comes straight back to your center of mass.

Was trained by former SEALs to use an OGL in order to keep the light away from your centerline. The principles and techniques are very useful in most environments, except maybe going down a flight of stairs. Was wondering if there is different training or practice techniques out their. Wanted to know what others are learning to use to identify good guys from bad and how often they train and practice.

Oh well, thought I'd ask. As Wayne Gretzky said, "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

My Training and experience comes from near 20 years "Professionally" doing it, so take what you will from what I learned. We didn't have mounted lights back when I got started, we used hand held lights only when needed, relying more on Night Vision, BUT, we had to improvise and that meant using a light. What we found was YES, the light ( or laser) projects your exact location, and your body orientation, making you an easy target, especially to those who see you before you see them!
We came up with techniques that mitigated this, using a low output light, aimed at the ground in front of you, and off axis to your direction of travel, and you only "Flashed" it on and off a few times, just to keep your bearings and your weapon was always kept below line of sight in the low ready. This made you much harder to detect and much harder to hit, which was especially handy as these were the days before good armor! Once you believed you had a valid target, you brought the weapon into firing position with the light and flashed the light on, if you had a target, you fired, if not, you went into search mode again, and you always tried to keep moving! The eye can be fooled, light and movement will trigger the eye's natural response and the brain reacts, so you do what you can to fool the eye, getting the tango to look elsewhere for that instant so you can nail him before he nails you! Put me in a shoot house full of Cops and I will smoke the lot of them every single time, same with anyone else who claims a mounted light is the answer! Rifle makes this a hell of a lot harder, but you learn how to make it work, and ultimately, if i'm doing CQB, I WANT that Rifle! This is part of where the "C" Grip came from with your off hand, use a small low output light in the palm of your hand and when you index on the forearm, the light will be right there ready to go, keep the weapon at the low ready and your golden, same tactics, which makes a transition super easy!

 

[RBB4ME]

Probably one of the bigger training issues with white lights is simply the concept that you are telegraphing everywhere you go and everywhere you look while the light is on. For example, if you are inside a home and moving around with a light with a potential adversary somewhere in the home your light will telegraph the direction you will be going everywhere you go if you have it on while you are moving around. The person in the home will easily be able to be aware of your arrival before you get there and be able to wait in ambush. It would be far better off to #1 not search the house if possible and wait in your own position of ambush and #2, if you do search the house turn on overhead lights ahead of you because it reduces the advantage they have over you because the overhead light won't telegraph your movements nearly as much and you will be able to see what is happening in the house far better than with just a flashlight.

Getting bright lights shined in your face is effective, to a point. Bullets being attracted to flashlights is a real thing, and using a flashlight and staying in the same location is a good way to catch one. Shooting in the direction of muzzle flash is a time-proven tactic too but that is more for rifle engagements. Context is key here, I think a lot of commenters are using a lens of varying degrees of context and that is why there are varying degrees of commentary. As for me, I have not paid for anyone to teach me about using a flashlight, but I am very confident in my competence of how to employ them.

Let the real discussion begin!

Telegraphing where you go is common. This is most often by the resulting 'shadow lines'. There are ways to hide them, but it takes training and practice.

"Getting a bright light shined in your face is effective, to a point." Yep! Everything is effective…to a point. Using light skills to it's end point is helpful. White light paired with guns or even close-in knife skills is a game changer.

Humans use about 70-80% visual sensory information to fight (unless it's rolling with an opponent).Taking away 70-80% of someone's ability to fight you at distance, even momentarily can give you an opportunity to change the fight, or make things worse for your opponent!

It even has de-escalation advantages.

 

[MasterChief]

Understood...fading distantly .....out...... Standing behind blackout windows and shades.....but monitoring

Tldr

SureFire - dazzle them with brightness and run... Send them to the loop and hope you running is better than theirs

 

[Yarome]

I didn't vote either. I'm not an instuctor but I use both... and exclusively one or the other is a pretty poor idea, IMHO.

WML only, for civilian use, your painting targets while searching. Bad idea. OGL you're compromising your accuracy in certain situations.

Rifle... search and identify targets with an OGL then drop it and transition to your WML.

Handgun... you're "typically" better off to stay with your OGL (no transition time) and only use a WML under certain conditions or as a backup.

With either it's important to have training to learn good light discipline.

Identifying your center mass more with a WML... vs... OGL is more "myth" (using good light discipline), IMHO.

Infrared... is FAR less scary than WL!! Getting painted with WL you have a pretty good idea something yer not gonna like is coming your way. IR... you'll never see it coming so no time to get all excited and P yerself.

 

[Yarome]

We came up with techniques that mitigated this, using a low output light, aimed at the ground in front of you, and off axis to your direction of travel, and you only "Flashed" it on and off a few times, just to keep your bearings and your weapon was always kept below line of sight in the low ready. This made you much harder to detect and much harder to hit,

Exactraly... this. Good light discipline is critial no matter what you're using.

On Edit: I guess I could say I have WML's on only 2 purpose specific rifles and never had any on any hanguns until just recently. Now 2 of them but only because the lights were dirt cheap PSA clearance items and I consider them only as backups. More "why not" than I actually think I need them. Backups are hardly ever a bad idea, and who knows... if I ever get hit and my left arm is unuseable... I'll probably be glad I have them!

On the other hand, I have really good OGL's stashed all over the place and always have one on my person or within immediate reach at all times.

 

[American123]

Let the real discussion begin!

Telegraphing where you go is common. This is most often by the resulting 'shadow lines'. There are ways to hide them, but it takes training and practice.

"Getting a bright light shined in your face is effective, to a point." Yep! Everything is effective…to a point. Using light skills to it's end point is helpful. White light paired with guns or even close-in knife skills is a game changer.

Humans use about 70-80% visual sensory information to fight (unless it's rolling with an opponent).Taking away 70-80% of someone's ability to fight you at distance, even momentarily can give you an opportunity to change the fight, or make things worse for your opponent!

It even has de-escalation advantages.

Yep, I get all that. I have lights on all my carry guns, but they are a niche item and if I feel inclined to pull the pistol in defence of my self or others I will very likely be able to see already what the threat is and not spend miliseconds turning on the light and instead put rounds on target. A bright light in hand held form is a different tool than a WML, you can legally point a very bright hand held at other people who have not attacked you yet. You can't legally do that with a WML in most instances that you could with a handheld, so it just depends entirely on the context how the tool will be helpful and how it should be used.
Getting back to telegraphing through, I'm just looking at my house as an example, if I walked around my house with a flash light, it wouldn't matter if I had it pointed at the cieling, or the ground, there will be telegraphed movement everywhere I went because the source of light would be eminatting some the same spot "Me."

 

[Ura-Ki]

Yep, I get all that. I have lights on all my carry guns, but they are a niche item and if I feel inclined to pull the pistol in defence of my self or others I will very likely be able to see already what the threat is and not spend miliseconds turning on the light and instead put rounds on target. A bright light in hand held form is a different tool than a WML, you can legally point a very bright hand held at other people who have not attacked you yet. You can't legally do that with a WML in most instances that you could with a handheld, so it just depends entirely on the context how the tool will be helpful and how it should be used.
Getting back to telegraphing through, I'm just looking at my house as an example, if I walked around my house with a flash light, it wouldn't matter if I had it pointed at the cieling, or the ground, there will be telegraphed movement everywhere I went because the source of light would be eminatting some the same spot "Me."

YUP!
Two things working against you with ANY light, the Beam it's self, and the actuation of said light, many if not most make an audible click, even some of the high end units, so you need to be aware of that when choosing to use a light or not!
In my house, I keep a series of "night lights" on, these are just bright enough to not need a flash light as long as your night vision is still good, except for final ID of tango, it's a good bet if I click the light on, your dead!

This is all extra, if you some how managed to get past our three dogs, one of whom is a Ninja Grizzly who doesn't bark or growl, one is a Tank, and one a Land Shark, i'm probably gonna have a good fight on my hands!

 

[American123]

YUP!
Two things working against you with ANY light, the Beam it's self, and the actuation of said light, many if not most make an audible click, even some of the high end units, so you need to be aware of that when choosing to use a light or not!
In my house, I keep a series of "night lights" on, these are just bright enough to not need a flash light as long as your night vision is still good, except for final ID of tango, it's a good bet if I click the light on, your dead!

This is all extra, if you some how managed to get past our three dogs, one of whom is a Ninja Grizzly who doesn't bark or growl, one is a Tank, and one a Land Shark, i'm probably gonna have a good fight on my hands!

I think "active self protection" videos are relevant here. In the however many thousand of videos he has reviewed, very few have included a light being employed.

In my house I don't keep any lights on. If someone came in my house they'd have to turn on lights to effectively see and move around. That works against them for the very same reasons I mentioned earlier about telegraphing movement with using a light myself. We can go down this "what if" rabbit hole pretty far, but I think we've covered the bigger topics about WL usage and how it can be helpful AND/or harmful depending on how and when it is used.

 

[titsonritz]

My favorite posts are always those that criticize the poll. Where is your poll then?

Answer the question.

As far as training, there are learning curves to both WML and OGLs. WML, from your opponent''s perspective, point back to your center of mass because they are mounted to the gun and are located at your center-line.

OGLs are by their nature off-line, but require training and practice to see what you need to see. All of this is academic though, and beneath some who want a better poll.

Great! Then create it.

Which question am I answering?

BTW with 69,000 candela in the face there is no "center of mass"

 

[RBB4ME]

Which question am I answering?

BTW with 69,000 candela in the face there is no "center of mass"

The poll was the question. But you can answer whatever you want, Cupcake.

 

[RBB4ME]

IF YOU GUYS WANT TO TRAIN, LET ME KNOW:

I can work something out with Steve and Ceberus Group. We've talked and he know my background, who I've been trained by and who I have trained.

If anyone wants to do a 1 or 2 day handgun lowlight/no-light training class. I will do it gratis. Free. We can train and/or enchange ideas. You just need a reliable handgun, off-gun light and enough ammo to get you through the training (500 - 1000 rounds). Let me know.

Enough sh!t talk. Let's train!