WA the new front in Wolf Wars

[daiello91]

Some interesting facts like:

# Only 0.11% of all cattle losses were due to wolf predation in 2005.
# Coyotes killed more than 22 times more cattle than wolves killed that year.
# Domestic dogs killed almost 5 times as many cattle, and vultures killed almost twice as many cattle as wolves did in 2005.

While those numbers are facts it's an unfair comparison. The population of all animals being compared to wolves is ridiculously out of proportion. Coyotes exist by the hundred of thousands per state, as do domestic dogs. To compare the damage done by several hundred thousand animals of one species to several hundred of another is nothing shy of ignorant.

Lets see the statistics if their were hundred thousand wolves in each state. The numbers would tell a completely different tale.

 

[Spitpatch]

I don't believe "posting a link to an unbiased source" is required when I post my own first-hand experiences, and conclusions drawn from same. Neither do I doubt your statistics (from sources well noted). Please include toward your conclusions (lacking any firsthand experience), statistics showing comparisons of current populations of wolves in proximity to beef ranches, with the current populations of coyotes, domestic dogs, and vultures in proximity. Such effort will clarify and support (or negate) your conclusions.

"Cattle don't seem like a likely prey for wolves,..." Anyone with first-hand experience with wolves (regardless of their views toward their preservation) will acknowledge that ANYTHING a wolf (or any other predator for that matter) can catch is "likely prey": From beetles, grubs and grashoppers to moose. Cattle fall into this spectrum with not much difficulty, and very often when cattle are available, wolves will readily shift toward this food source obtained with less energy expense than a source obtained with greater effort.

Here are some facts:

The Northern Yellowstone elk herd trend count has dropped from some 19,000 elk in 1995 before the introduction of the Canadian Gray wolf to just over 6,000 elk in 2008. At the same time the wolf numbers in this same area are on a steady increase.

• Yellowstone's Madison Firehole elk herd trend count has fallen from 700 to 108.

• The Gallatin Canyon elk herd trend count between Bozeman and Big Sky, Mont., has declined from 1,048 to 338.

• Wolf numbers in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming have far exceeded the original goal of 30 breeding pairs and 300 total wolves. Population estimates now exceed 1,700 wolves, yet others want to push the total up to 2,000 to 5,000 wolves.

• Studies show that wolves kill up to 23 elk per wolf from November through April alone—or up to 40,000 elk in just six months. A smaller but still significant number are killed from May through October, with total annual elk kills by wolves just for food potentially greater than 50,000 at the present level of wolf population. This accounts for only the elk needed for food, not surplus killing, which are elk killed by wolves and not eaten, which also occurs. The majority of all these kills are not elk that are sick or old.

• Elk calf survival rates where wolves (and bears) are present are extremely low in specific herds, resulting in a survival rate of 10 percent or less, which is too low to sustain the herd over the long-term.

Yes, towns that have based their economies on elk hunting CAN be devastated. They have been. I've seen it.

 

[Spitpatch]

And this from me posted in a neighboring related thread:

I speak not from speculation, but from some moderate experience, and I, for one would not want wolves eradicated from the lower 48, and I actually believe it is pretty darned cool they made it to Oregon on their own without being planted here.

From the age of 12, I slept in my bed with an Alaska Timber Wolf rug above me, and it measured 8foot 4 inches long. Persons seeing it for the first time knew it was a grizzly bear, till I directed their attention to its tail. My father took that wolf near Ophir, Alaska. I have been fortunate enough to chase Caribou and Dall's Sheep in Alaska (self-guided hunts), and on more than one occasion was priveleged enough to see wolves in the wild, and was serenaded to sleep by them. Hunting in the Bob Marshal Wilderness in Montana since the age of 13, I have watched the recent effect of uncontrolled wolf populations on the elk herd there (NOT a "tiny amount'). I have witnessed the destruction of the base economy for the town of Lincoln, and one of our dear family friends closed shop on her guide business at the age of 74 after 50 years of hunting there. I also have had the honor of seeing a wolf in the wild in Montana.

One of my very favorite books is "Never Cry Wolf", and not because it makes a case for wolf preservation, but because it teaches very much about the social lives of wolves. I also like it because I like the author's (Farley Mowat) style of writing, just as I like his treatise on his experiences in the Spanish Civil War: "And No Birds Sang". Farley Mowat's wolf book is more a commentary on the stupidity of government bureaucracy than it is about wolf preservation. The movie did not represent this well.

I like wolves. I like seeing them. I believe they are an essential part of anything we might call the wild. But I know the hard facts and realities that they cannot exist in proximity to vigorous human constructive activity (ranching, hunting-based economies), and neither can they exist, populations unchecked, where people want to allow their pets and children in the outdoors unsupervised and undefended. These realities are not debatable. They are true.

Ideally, I would like to see a wolf population that is closely watched, strictly controlled, and yet offers a moderate opportunity for those who want to view and photograph them as well as those who might want the challenge of a hunt for one. This ideal is very hard to achieve, and it is only when the people who love wolves (as I do) join with the people that hunt (as I do), and the livestock owners (as I am), combining their financial and work resources to find a place for the wolves where they do not destroy livelihoods and economies, or present danger to human activity.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Cattle dont seem like a likely prey for wolves, much less one they would exploit to the point of putting ranchers out of buisiness. That would take a LOT of wolves.

{WARNING: The links below are pretty graphic. Not for kids.}

Take a look here.

SD, you're simply a troll, trying to stir up arguments. Your aim isn't to discuss wolves, it's to get people angry and arguing with you. Using 6 year old statistics proves how desperate you are. You really want to see what wolves do? Take another look here. There's no arguing with your own eyes.

Mass killings? Look here.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

All from wolves huh? Destroying entire towns...wow. Sounds like BS.

Actually, that is precisely what’s happening. As small ranchers have their already slim profit margins literally eaten up by wolves, as timber jobs and money dry up, as land and environmental regulations put more and more farmers out of business the small rural towns in Oregon are whithering away.

Many people are dismayed by this, but I think I see a silver lining. Already the small towns in the area where my relatives own ranches are becoming less welcoming to Portlanders with their “tribal” accoutrements, their neon colored clown suits and bicycles, and their holier than thou book-learned ignorance that they perceive as wisdom. I already have a few acquaintances in Portland that are reluctant to travel to places like Molalla and Maupin. Too many “rednecks” for their tastes, and they don’t feel safe there. My secret wish is that it becomes a lot like some areas in the Ozarks are, even today. Even federal agents feel a bit uneasy and avoid certain areas. And for tourists and sightseers, well, you remember “Deliverance”, right?

I do kind of look forward to a day when know-nothing college boys with rubber rafts and pony-tailed seniors in spandex are afraid to get off the interstate east of Mt. Hood. It’ll greatly improve the ambiance and raise the collective IQ of eastern Oregon.

 

[ZigZagZeke]

Zeke:

If you are going to plagiarize me, be a bit more clever, eh?

from my column:

You know, Dave, I could easily have written "...ought to check that out with the families of Alaska school teacher Candice Berner, who was killed by wolves last year, and University of Waterloo student Kenton Joel Carnegie, who was killed by wolves in northern Saskatchewan in November 2005." myself, but cutting and pasting those details saved a minute or two of detailed editing. Sorry if I offended. Next time I take a shortcut I'll give attribution. That said, it's not like I was borrowing from Shakespeare.

 

[Spitpatch]

Zeke, I have never had the pleasure of viewing such an eloquent case for economic depression as an attribute toward general cultural improvement. I've often had the same thoughts when visiting close friends with ranches in North Powder, and Prineville, as well as family and friends in Montana: that the generally crappy economy is what keeps things real. I hate to voice it when in their presence, as I'm sure they'd like things a bit better financially, but thanks for the articulation.

And this from a former college boy who did a lot of whitewater rafting, still ride a mountain bike, and sport a ponytail at the age of double nickles plus one.

I also ride a bay quarterhorse faster than is generally considered sane, with a bottle of Jack Daniels in the pommel bag, Remington 1890 .44-40 on the other side, and a Colt Lightning in the scabbard. (So be careful with generalities). Where's that smiley face icon?

 

[ZigZagZeke]

And this from a former college boy who did a lot of whitewater rafting, still ride a mountain bike, and sport a ponytail at the age of double nickles plus one.

SP, while you and I don't agree on everything, I've been accused of being a liberal about as often as a conservative. I don't have much quarrel with people of any political or social persuasion as long as they possess a modicum of common sense. I enjoy rafting as much as the next guy, but I also like to fly fish that same water. You know the people I'm referring to, those "oblivions" and "touroids" who are forever rushing from one place to another to experience the next fad activity, who wouldn't know a wolf from a german sheperd if it pee'd on their leg, but are sure their Disney-fied view of the world is correct. I'd be content to let them live in their theme park, Portland fantasy world if they'd be content to let me manage my part of the world. Sadly, they are convinced that what they see on PBS, and hear from their professors at PSU, and read in the latest book by "experts" like Bear Gryles is the truth and anyone with a different point of view is ignorant and provincial, and they are militant about it.

Even though I'm fast approaching the maximum Oregon speed limit in age, I'd be happy to join you someday for a trail ride and a slug of good whiskey. I'll bring along my 1873 Remington rolling block and a bluetick coonhound. After I retire next year I'll probably look something like this:

 

[Spitpatch]

With my Plott Hound, we'd have the beginnings of a good pack. Let the ponies rest and listen to mountain music from the dogs. I'm not sure, but I bet she's as true on Granolas as 'coons, and no "OFF" switch in a fight.

 

[rickoshay]

I say kill em all

 

[ZigZagZeke]

With my Plott Hound, we'd have the beginnings of a good pack. Let the ponies rest and listen to mountain music from the dogs. I'm not sure, but I bet she's as true on Granolas as 'coons, and no "OFF" switch in a fight.

Never met a Plott man I didn't like.