Tri-County Muzzle Rule Example Photo

[Goosebrown]

Thats almost funny. I remember when I remember at Clark Rifles it always seemed to be on the "closed to members, open to law enforcement" days that incidents such as bullets off range happened.

I firmly believe this is the case. However you can't really deny use of the range to a department. Maybe a single officer, but that would be hard too.

I know there are a lot of police here on the forum, but I have to say that in my experience, there are more of them caught doing unsafe things than non-police.

 

[CHLChris]

And this rule is why there is no USPSA at Tri-County. If this rule were to proliferate around the area, there would be no USPSA in the area. That would be a crying shame. USPSA is the fastest-growing shooting sport right now.

 

[NWGlockgal]

And this rule is why there is no USPSA at Tri-County. If this rule were to proliferate around the area, there would be no USPSA in the area. That would be a crying shame. USPSA is the fastest-growing shooting sport right now.

TriCounty has it's own version called Practical Pistol. Pretty much the same as USPSA, but with the muzzle rule in force. Many
people I've spoken to think that more ranges will adapt the rule as they are encroached on by development and that in the long
run USPSA will have to adapt to it.

 

[CHLChris]

USPSA will not adapt to it because it is stupid. I am in no place to criticize Tri-County, per se, but simply in a place not to play their game. USPSA, nationwide, will not be adapting to this type of rule. It would be a scaredy-pants response to the problems being encountered at certain local ranges here and there around the country.

Personally, I don't intend to learn a new way of reloading for only one club. Additionally, I will only shoot where they allow natural reloading techniques. I suppose that is until there are no more clubs that allow natural reloading.

 

[RicInOR]

If you use an indoor range, can you reload while pointing at the roof?

 

[Caveman Jim]

Who has defined muzzle up reloading as natural reloading? Just curious because I don't muzzle up reload my pistol, it is pointing straight towards the berm (target area) when I place another magazine, but then again I am no expert.

 

[CHLChris]

@Caveman Jim The issue is speed. The fact that you reload pointing at the berm probably just means that you aren't a speed demon gamer like what I'm talking about. The fastest, most efficient manner to reload a pistol is to have the magwell opening facing your spare mag pouches as your support hand brings a mag to the magwell, inserting it smartly. In that position, with the gun canted outward, the natural direction for one's muzzle is upward, maybe 30-50 degrees...WAYYYY over the berm.

My goal in competition is to win. I shave tenths of seconds off whenever possible to get things done sooner so I can get back to making points by shooting at targets. The way you are describing your reload, Jim, is not wrong. But it is slow, at least slower than it could possibly be.

 

[CHLChris]

If you use an indoor range, can you reload while pointing at the roof?

I don't know of any local indoor ranges that require a particular manner of reloading fresh magazines. The only rule is to not shoot the ceiling!

Oh, and in case anybody is not aware, regardless of one's chosen range to shoot an action pistol match, shooting a round during ANY reload, whether it goes over the berm or not. is an automatic DISQUALIFICATION. You will be asked to unload and pack up.

The rule at TCGC is just set up so that, if somebody shoots a round during a reload, they will still be DQ'ed, but won't be sending a round into the neighborhood. It is extra safety.

 

[Caveman Jim]

@Caveman Jim The issue is speed. The fact that you reload pointing at the berm probably just means that you aren't a speed demon gamer like what I'm talking about. The fastest, most efficient manner to reload a pistol is to have the magwell opening facing your spare mag pouches as your support hand brings a mag to the magwell, inserting it smartly. In that position, with the gun canted outward, the natural direction for one's muzzle is upward, maybe 30-50 degrees...WAYYYY over the berm.

My goal in competition is to win. I shave tenths of seconds off whenever possible to get things done sooner so I can get back to making points by shooting at targets. The way you are describing your reload, Jim, is not wrong. But it is slow, at least slower than it could possibly be.

You are right I am slow, steady and safe. I feel that any FA pointed upwards when inserting a magazine is unsafe, all it takes is one ND but that's just MHO.
Good luck to your quest for speed.

 

[CHLChris]

I shoot USPSA most weekends and I cannot think of a single shooter who doesn't point over the berm when reloading. And not a single person has ever shot a bullet over the berm that I know of. In fact the 150 safest shooters I know!

 

[Koda]

The fastest, most efficient manner to reload a pistol is to have the magwell opening facing your spare mag pouches as your support hand brings a mag to the magwell, inserting it smartly.

from a practical position this makes sense.

where do we draw the line between practical training and safest training?

 

[CHLChris]

I don't compete as training. It's a game. And more time on the gun is better. Competition teaches gun handling as subconscious motions that are safe and efficient.

 

[aflineman]

Guess I would be screwed there, ad I tend to reload my revolvers with the barrel pointed up. Much easier that way for my single or double action. I can do it other ways, but well over 30 years of muscle memory is hard to overcome.

 

[CHLChris]

but well over 30 years of muscle memory is hard to overcome.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

 

[Koda]

Im doing some dry practice... just curious, for those that are defending the traditional method of canting the gun skyward are you looking at the gun or the target during this operation?

 

[NWGlockgal]

If you use an indoor range, can you reload while pointing at the roof?

I ran into someone from TriCounty who is "in the know" who says that one of the owners of the land (CVSC) is considering roofing the action range when it moves not only to make it more pleasant to shoot but also there would be steel plating so a muzzle pointing skywards wouldn't matter.
Sounds nice but the cost is probably prohibitive.

 

[mkwerx]

Im doing some dry practice... just curious, for those that are defending the traditional method of canting the gun skyward are you looking at the gun or the target during this operation?

Both. When done properly the gun is visible and peripheral vision handles the item not in focus.

Look at the current "tactical" training methidology taught at most shooting schools that was popularized by the MagPul Dynamic duo of Haley & Costa. Magazine well is pretty much face level so you can see the threat and the gun.

I train and have trained that way for years, even before MagPul training was a thing. It works well and is safe. And I have never had an indoor range RSO complain about reloading technique - they gripe if you shoot faster than 1 per second or maybe controlled pairs but never about muzzle up reloads.

I am not a competition shooter but being quick to reload is a skill I value for defensive use. Same with quickly assessing malfunction and doing a clearance. Again gun goes to same reload position for a tap rack bang.

Maybe ranges like TC need bigger berms/deeper pits or turn into indoor facilities with reinforced baffles. Or maybe they should petition cities/counties not to allow development so close to a gun range.

 

[Koda]

1 mag with snap caps in a mag holster on the belt. 1 empty mag in the gun at slidelock. 8x11 paper on the wall about 7yds as target. I didn't time myself for this exercise for 2 reasons 1) time is relative and there is always someone faster and you can train yourself to do anything faster but doesn't mean its the easiest... 2) I wanted to find the most natural method.

Type 1: Did several repetitions canting the gun, I found this natural and efficient but I kept wanting to look at the gun. I forced myself to not look at the gun and only on the target and found it less efficient but was able to improve and get it down.

Type 2: Did several keeping the gun extended and on target, I found this much less efficient and struggled with still wanting to cant the gun even just a tiny bit. I corrected that by forcing myself not to and found I could learn this method but it was not as natural and efficient. It was slow and there was something about doing it at full extension that wasn't working......

Type 3: I recalled in class being taught to keep the muzzle on the threat during reload, but don't recall keeping the gun extended in the shooting position so I did several repetitions keeping the muzzle on the threat but bringing it back into my workspace for the reload. I found this very efficient and just as natural, I also found it easier to not want to cant the gun even a little and easier to keep my eye on the target because I naturally wanted to focus on the front sight and keep my sight picture. The difference in motion between the mag holster and magwell is so negligible, I don't think I could argue that one is faster or easier than the other, to get technical the latter being a very minor rotation in the same distance as the prior (type 1). I was able to forget about it after just a few reps and found myself getting faster. It became clear I need to practice my reloads more but I will stick with what I was taught by professional instructors.


I took my class March of 16.... so this is not a "new" thing. I can see how one can argue between the traditional method and the new method since they are both effective and natural. However, I suspect this is something that over time will take over shooting matches but who knows maybe not but I do know bullets have left the range and that means its a matter of time until it happens again.

 

[CHLChris]

"Keep the muzzle on the threat during a reload."

I'm no expert, by any measure, but here is my take. First, there is almost no historical report of any reloads during a civilian DGU. The odds of performing a reload with an active threat still before you are so low that I have no desire to train for that possibility.

Second, LOOK at what you're doing. Look at the magwell, but have it near eye level looking forward. In my mind it is better to get the reload done faster and more efficiently so as to get back to work quickly. Looking anywhere else during a high-stress event will cause you to fumble the reload. Look at the gun while reloading! At least with my competition rig, I've got a 0.7 second reload. If I had to clear a shirt, it would be slower, but I'm fast. I'd rather look at my gun, get it done, and then move on.

I say, move the gun however you need to to get the reload done quickly and THEN get back to the threat.

 

[NWGlockgal]

All the debating isn't going to change things at TriCounty...the rule is the rule and it's not going away.
I don't particularly like it either, but if you shoot there, you accept it.
The funny thing is, when rounds have left the range it's been when the police have been there training.
I don't think it's ever happened with a "civilian". Maybe it's LE that needs the rule, not us