Tri-County Muzzle Rule Example Photo

Discussion in 'Competitive Shooting' started by RicInOR, Oct 4, 2017.

  1. Koda

    Koda
    Oregon
    Silver Supporter Silver Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    Then why practice reloads at all?
    Same for malfunction drills...

    I understand the debate and why some wont want to adapt, I just think the difference in technique is negligable but much safer.... Historically, Ive never heard of a civilian reload either but rounds have left the range...
     
  2. CHLChris

    CHLChris
    Portland Metro East
    Love me some guns! Silver Supporter

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    I practice reloads so I can be faster at my game...USPSA. Every second of practice I put into my game (reloads, draws, transitions, aimed fire at a fast pace, performance under stress) will serve me well in a DGU. I'm not going to practice, physically, doing anything different for a DGU versus competition. I'm just going to get a good at my game as possible.

    If you've ever seen a competitor deal with a malf, you'll immediately see how competition will benefit every bit of gun-handling skills! Click (a blur of movement) BANG!

    I just think everyone should try competition at some point. And if Tri-County Practical Pistol is your game, that will do just fine. @NWGlockgal shoots at every range around these parts and does really well everywhere, so the odd reload rules at TCGC aren't holding her back at all!
     
  3. NWGlockgal

    NWGlockgal
    Oregon
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    Well, thank you. It is true that I do shoot at just about every range, however it's not true that I do well! But that has nothing to do with reloading :)
    I agree, everyone should try competition at some point, there are a lot to choose from and everyone can find something they like (which for me is all of them) and something they can be reasonably good at (for me that's Bullseye, which is starting soon! Yay!)
     
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  4. ac4wordplay

    ac4wordplay
    Oregon
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    Sorry this reply is so late, but I just found the thread (haven't been here in a little while).

    Point of fact: yes, it has happened with LE, and it has happened with civilians, and it's happened during USPSA. I've witnessed it with skilled handlers/competitors (including USPSA Master class) at TCGC and ARPC (and IIRC at Dundee too). They were kinda like CHLChris - trying to "win", trying to shave a tenth of a second, violating one of the four universal rules of firearms safety, and ... oops!

    It was always an accident by someone who we wouldn't expect to have the problem (kinda seems consistent with the idea of "accident", right?). At TCGC it's not just LE who need the rule, the rule is needed by anybody who doesn't want to risk:
    • getting the discipline shut down
    • getting the club shut down
    • getting sued
    • damaging somebody else's property
    • injuring (possibly killing) somebody

    Fortunately it doesn't happen often, but for range property that has development nearby, once could be enough for catastrophe. Is it so hard to imagine that someone outside the property, injured by a projectile that left the range, would sue everybody (person who fired the gun, the RO on that stage, the MD/RM/Discipline Director, the gun club, and USPSA)? For a determined lawyer, it wouldn't be hard to present a plausible case against any/all of them.

    Even if the plaintiff doesn't win the case, great damage is done to the defendants (and let's not forget that an injury/death was involved). Additionally (as if we need anything additional) it's a public relations nightmare for USPSA (or whatever organization), the gun club, etc.

    Why is it such a legal/PR nightmare? Because it's easy to virtually eliminate the risk (don't let your muzzle cover anything that isn't a projectile containment area* [it's kinda like one of those four universal laws of firearms safety AKA Cooper's four rules of firearms safety]), and because there's documentation that USPSA, various clubs, and shooters have known about and disregarded this safety risk. That makes us look pretty bad, and makes it much easier for plaintiff's attorneys.

    * or a target placed such that any pass-through or reasonable misses result in the projectile entering into the containment area. Of course, this means that the gun club must provide appropriate projectile containment, but if they don't... what else are they doing wrong? (Probably several important things.) There are likely several excellent reasons that you shouldn't want to shoot there.

    In California, earlier this year a round left one range and killed a person on another range (different area of the gun club property). Lawsuits were filed.

    I hope this helps clarify a few things.

    Best,

    ac
     
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  5. CHLChris

    CHLChris
    Portland Metro East
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    Or, just have the rule that you can't have your finger in the trigger guard during a reload...oh yeah, that's already a rule. Or have the rule that you can't have your finger in the trigger guard during a malfunction clearance...oh yeah, that's already a rule.
     
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  6. ac4wordplay

    ac4wordplay
    Oregon
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    Those are appropriate rules, but there is a reason that serious pursuit of safety involves "layers" or redundancy, and doesn't rely on a single rule (those USPSA rules are based on the same universal rule - keep your finger outside of the trigger guard until you're actually firing a shot). Redundancy of safety rules is paramount because... accidents can/do happen, especially when competitors are focusing on shaving tenths (leaving less of their focus on safety issues). Having layers of safety rules in place prevents catastrophe on the occasions when one of the rules is violated (because at some point one of the rules will be violated).

    You seem to be taking the position that it doesn't matter where you point the muzzle (a violation of one of the four universal rules of firearms safety), as long as you don't have a finger in the trigger guard (honoring one of the four rules). This is an unwise and unsafe position to take.

    Competition guns often get a lot of use/wear. They also often get "customized" (frequently in a less-than-professional, kitchen table gunsmith manner). Poorly customized + high use = accelerated wear on poorly fitted parts = increased risk of malfunction. When, after a slide-lock reload, the operator releases the slide (it returns to battery, and in the process it chambers a round)... and the hammer follows and discharges the freshly chambered round (!), it doesn't matter that the operator's finger was outside the trigger guard. What matters is where the muzzle was pointed at the instant of discharge.

    Does it happen often? Fortunately no. But it has happened, and will continue to happen (infrequently), just as accidents happen.

    "It's okay, we addressed the problem and DQd the competitor" won't satisfy the lawyer of a person injured by a projectile that leaves the range.

    To be clear, I'm discussing this within the context of TCGC, and I'm not indicting clubs that don't address this concern. It may also be worth mentioning (for those who may not know, and may be curious) that I'm a competitor, and I like going fast and shaving tenths (or, more accurately/correctly in USPSA, increasing my hit factor).

    Respectfully,

    ac
     
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  7. RicInOR

    RicInOR
    Washington County
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    This was shared elsewhere in NWFA, but it applies to the reasons behind the rule.


     

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