JavaScript is disabled
Our website requires JavaScript to function properly. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding.
Messages
42,607
Reactions
110,611
You may have heard me say this before, but maybe this thread topic will catch some people's eye enough to make a point.

The other day I read a position paper by Trump about the Second Amendment being about having a gun for "self-defense".

You have all heard people saying that you don't need an AR or AK for duck hunting or even for home defense.

These people - including Trump (and many judges and LEOs) just do not "get it".

The Second Amendment does not mention firearms.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Notice the use of the word Arms and that it is capitalized.

"Arms", in this context refers to any military weapon - whether a firearm, a knife/sword/bayonet, a grenade or other explosive, mortar, cannon, etc.

The purpose is not hunting or other sport.

"Self-defense" as in personal self-defense, is not really the purpose either, although related.

The purpose of the Second Amendment is to serve as a balance of power.

Before a standing army can rule the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.

Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (1787), Reprinted in Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States, Published During Its Discussion by the People, 1787–1788, at 56 (Paul L. Ford, ed. 1971) (1888)

The basic idea being that an armed populace serves as a counter-balance against governmental power wielded by an elected few.

This is why it is so important. No so you can have a duck hunting shotgun, or a .22 for plinking, but rather so that we can remain free.

This is the real reason why so many in power want to restrict private ownership of firearms.

This is also why they want to have background checks and/or other systems that allow the government to know who owns firearms, what kind of firearms they are, and their serial numbers - so when it comes time to confiscate those firearms (or otherwise force owners to turn them in), then they have a record of the firearms, who owns them and who probably owns others - including a way to prove in court that those firearms weren't sold to somebody else.

This is why they portray gun owners as unstable "gun nuts"; to get public support not just for these systems, but to make gun ownership unpopular and not socially acceptable, so that when it does come time to prohibit private firearm ownership altogether, they have the support from the majority of the populace to do so.

This is why they are slowly whittling away at military weapons, especially NFA weapons. And not just guns, but edged weapons, pepper spray, you name it, anything that can be used as a weapon.

You may not own a NFA weapon. You might not be into edged weapons. But the Second Amendment is about all weapons, not just guns. And it isn't about self-defense, it is about freedom from tyranny.

Remember that.

Don't let other people forget it.

Don't let other people say it is about anything else.
 
I know how to make a nuke, but the parts are prohibitively expensive.

I have sometimes added the caveat that no person or other entity, not even governments, should possess NBC weapons. These weapons are dangerous; a gun won't shoot itself, nor a grenade, or tank. But a nuke or bio or chemical can leak radiation or virus/bacteria or toxic chemical without anybody touching it, and can be dangerous for millennia, if not eons.
 
I have sometimes added the caveat that no person or other entity, not even governments, should possess NBC weapons. These weapons are dangerous; a gun won't shoot itself, nor a grenade, or tank. But a nuke or bio or chemical can leak radiation or virus/bacteria or toxic chemical without anybody touching it, and can be dangerous for millennia, if not eons.

What if we just regulate "assault nukes" but allow less lethal nukes? Maybe a 10 kiloton limit? Sorry, that was just too easy to resist.
Your point about 2A not being about just firearms is well considered. Thanks for posting that.
 
Now we know why you are "The Heretic." :p:D j/k!

I had never considered edged weapons and pepper spray to be in the same category as firearms, but I agree with you. This is a good point, thanks for posting!
 
Now we know why you are "The Heretic." :p:D j/k!

I adopted "The Heretic" about 15 years ago on another forum.

I use that alias anywhere I think I may get involved in discussions about controversial issues.

I chose it because many more people disagree with me on a wide variety of issues than those that agree. In short, I don't fit into any given dogma category. Not in politics, not in religion, not in philosophy in general.

I try to seek out and speak the truth. A lot of people don't like hearing the truth.

I usually say something sometime that someone (often a lot of someones) disagrees vehemently with, and therefore wants to figuratively "burn me at the stake". I am used to it. It comes with the territory.

10632794_1391392664212200_5508852065371576395_n.jpg

Hence the name.
 
Last Edited:
The OP got it 100% right, the 2nd is all about the GOD GIVEN RIGHT to protect and defend the GIFT OF LIFE!!! Its not just to protect US against THEM, Da Gov, its about US being able to protect every facet of peaceful life! Why is it the leaders insist we no longer need the right to KEEP AND BEAR ARMS?!?!?!?! They know full well they haven't the power or ability to protect us from harm, but they see it as there moral duty to disarm us any way! MEGALOMANIAC'S are what they all are! etrain16 has often said, this discussion should be so toxic to any one wishing to remove it, that they effectively end there political lives!!! This election just proved that, Trump should lead by example and force the States to comply By Executive Order ENFORCING the full weight of law granted BY the 2nd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
You may have heard me say this before, but maybe this thread topic will catch some people's eye enough to make a point.

The other day I read a position paper by Trump about the Second Amendment being about having a gun for "self-defense".

You have all heard people saying that you don't need an AR or AK for duck hunting or even for home defense.

These people - including Trump (and many judges and LEOs) just do not "get it".

The Second Amendment does not mention firearms.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Notice the use of the word Arms and that it is capitalized.

"Arms", in this context refers to any military weapon - whether a firearm, a knife/sword/bayonet, a grenade or other explosive, mortar, cannon, etc.

The purpose is not hunting or other sport.

"Self-defense" as in personal self-defense, is not really the purpose either, although related.

The purpose of the Second Amendment is to serve as a balance of power.

Before a standing army can rule the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.

Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (1787), Reprinted in Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States, Published During Its Discussion by the People, 1787–1788, at 56 (Paul L. Ford, ed. 1971) (1888)

The basic idea being that an armed populace serves as a counter-balance against governmental power wielded by an elected few.

This is why it is so important. No so you can have a duck hunting shotgun, or a .22 for plinking, but rather so that we can remain free.

This is the real reason why so many in power want to restrict private ownership of firearms.

This is also why they want to have background checks and/or other systems that allow the government to know who owns firearms, what kind of firearms they are, and their serial numbers - so when it comes time to confiscate those firearms (or otherwise force owners to turn them in), then they have a record of the firearms, who owns them and who probably owns others - including a way to prove in court that those firearms weren't sold to somebody else.

This is why they portray gun owners as unstable "gun nuts"; to get public support not just for these systems, but to make gun ownership unpopular and not socially acceptable, so that when it does come time to prohibit private firearm ownership altogether, they have the support from the majority of the populace to do so.

This is why they are slowly whittling away at military weapons, especially NFA weapons. And not just guns, but edged weapons, pepper spray, you name it, anything that can be used as a weapon.

You may not own a NFA weapon. You might not be into edged weapons. But the Second Amendment is about all weapons, not just guns. And it isn't about self-defense, it is about freedom from tyranny.

Remember that.

Don't let other people forget it.

Don't let other people say it is about anything else.

And there is no need to actually have a confrontation with the government for the 2nd Amendment to work as intended. It is working, and has been working EXACTLY as intended for hundreds of years. It is not necessary to debate who would win in an armed confrontation between the government and the populace. The fact is that the people being armed to the extent that they have always been is a deterrent to would-be despots. The very idea of an armed confrontation between the populace and the government is unthinkable. It has been and would be too politically, socially, and economically costly to contemplate seriously, no matter who might "win". The fact is that there would be NO winners. Just the disruption to our economic system produced by such a confrontation, even on a limited scale, would be too dire and crippling to permit. This is why the government backed off in the Nevada confrontation, and why they were so careful and sneaky in resolving the Malheur situation. Even a relatively small armed conflict that looked anything like an uprising would be disastrous for business and the stock market. The people have demonstrated where the line is that cannot be crossed.

But a populace without arms, and the means to resist could simply be told how things were going to be, and there would be little or no disruption to our economic or political systems. I wonder how the Democrats feel now about the billions of rounds of 9mm hollow point ammo that is in our government warehouses at the moment, now that someone ideologically unpalatable to them has that resource to work with.

The difference in whether the people are armed or not can be seen in the disparity in the treatment of the demonstrators at Malheur, and the demonstrators at DAPL. Power respects power. Power does not respect the powerless.
 
And there is no need to actually have a confrontation with the government for the 2nd Amendment to work as intended. It is working, and has been working EXACTLY as intended for hundreds of years. It is not necessary to debate who would win in an armed confrontation between the government and the populace. The fact is that the people being armed to the extent that they have always been is a deterrent to would-be despots.

Nonetheless, there have been debates on what the outcome would be, with some asserting that the conclusion would be that the gov. would win (and if it was that simple they would maybe have a point).

That said, you are right - as long as there is widespread private ownership of firearms such will be worrisome to those who want more power.

OTOH - it isn't all about weapons either.

4139.png

This is where I think we are losing
 
Very Good points all round! FEAR is the engine that drives this, and the loss of that fear empowers one side to act against the other! The 2nd is much more then that as we all know, but it's essence is that the means to protect and defend against ANY threat both foreign and domestic is what separates this country from all the others where the Gov has "conquered" it's subjects through removal of those rights!
 
It's about a RIGHT not to stepped on or ignored. Doesn't matter which Right. None should be. Look what happens when the right to have your vote counted. Attack a woman's right to choose and see what happens. But when 2A, no let's think about what it really means.
 
Nonetheless, there have been debates on what the outcome would be, with some asserting that the conclusion would be that the gov. would win (and if it was that simple they would maybe have a point).

That said, you are right - as long as there is widespread private ownership of firearms such will be worrisome to those who want more power.

OTOH - it isn't all about weapons either.

View attachment 322668

This is where I think we are losing
Agreed, sadly.
 
The OP is spot on. Hunting, sport shooting, even self defense are used as distractions from the real issue which is self determination in my opinion. To self determine there must be a balance of power and an armed populace is the best way to achieve that balance. Again, in my opinion.
Love the Adams quote, by the way
Excellent post, Heretic. One of your best.
 
Copied from the interwebs, there are many similar iterations of this "joke" out there:

"Shortly before World War I, the German Kaiser was the guest of the Swiss government to observe military maneuvers. The Kaiser asked a Swiss militiaman: "You are 500,000 and you shoot well, but if we attack with 1,000,000 men what will you do?" The soldier replied: "Shoot twice and go home."..."

To whit 2A, if every sane law abiding adult in these United States was armed, it would prevent a tyrannical government, or foreign power from ever even considering taking over our great land.
 
You may have heard me say this before, but maybe this thread topic will catch some people's eye enough to make a point.

The other day I read a position paper by Trump about the Second Amendment being about having a gun for "self-defense".

You have all heard people saying that you don't need an AR or AK for duck hunting or even for home defense.

These people - including Trump (and many judges and LEOs) just do not "get it".

The Second Amendment does not mention firearms.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Notice the use of the word Arms and that it is capitalized.

"Arms", in this context refers to any military weapon - whether a firearm, a knife/sword/bayonet, a grenade or other explosive, mortar, cannon, etc.

The purpose is not hunting or other sport.

"Self-defense" as in personal self-defense, is not really the purpose either, although related.

The purpose of the Second Amendment is to serve as a balance of power.

Before a standing army can rule the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.

Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (1787), Reprinted in Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States, Published During Its Discussion by the People, 1787–1788, at 56 (Paul L. Ford, ed. 1971) (1888)

The basic idea being that an armed populace serves as a counter-balance against governmental power wielded by an elected few.

This is why it is so important. No so you can have a duck hunting shotgun, or a .22 for plinking, but rather so that we can remain free.

This is the real reason why so many in power want to restrict private ownership of firearms.

This is also why they want to have background checks and/or other systems that allow the government to know who owns firearms, what kind of firearms they are, and their serial numbers - so when it comes time to confiscate those firearms (or otherwise force owners to turn them in), then they have a record of the firearms, who owns them and who probably owns others - including a way to prove in court that those firearms weren't sold to somebody else.

This is why they portray gun owners as unstable "gun nuts"; to get public support not just for these systems, but to make gun ownership unpopular and not socially acceptable, so that when it does come time to prohibit private firearm ownership altogether, they have the support from the majority of the populace to do so.

This is why they are slowly whittling away at military weapons, especially NFA weapons. And not just guns, but edged weapons, pepper spray, you name it, anything that can be used as a weapon.

You may not own a NFA weapon. You might not be into edged weapons. But the Second Amendment is about all weapons, not just guns. And it isn't about self-defense, it is about freedom from tyranny.

Remember that.

Don't let other people forget it.

Don't let other people say it is about anything else.

:s0101:

This was a good post. I know you and I have disagreed on some things, but I still see you as a valuable contributing member of this forum, bringing good insight, and, at times, forcing people to challenge their preconceived notions. Sometimes folks need to be bumped off their rails a bit, if for no other reason than to take a moment to re-examine their belief system.
 
Do remember that the Man o' War (ship) was the 1770s version of the ICBM, able to reach out and project power on the other side of the globe (seriously, the last shots of the American Revolution were fired in the Indian Ocean, in the last of a series of duels between Suffren and Hughes), and the Founders were *very* enthusiastic about the practice of privateering (that language in the Constitution re "Letters of Marque & Reprisal") to harass our enemies.

Jefferson at least, for one, knew of Da Vinci's concept sketches for tanks and other modern-ish weapons, so other than WMD there's little we have today they couldn't have at least imagined.
 
You may have heard me say this before, but maybe this thread topic will catch some people's eye enough to make a point.

The other day I read a position paper by Trump about the Second Amendment being about having a gun for "self-defense".

You have all heard people saying that you don't need an AR or AK for duck hunting or even for home defense.

These people - including Trump (and many judges and LEOs) just do not "get it".

The Second Amendment does not mention firearms.

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

Notice the use of the word Arms and that it is capitalized.

"Arms", in this context refers to any military weapon - whether a firearm, a knife/sword/bayonet, a grenade or other explosive, mortar, cannon, etc.

The purpose is not hunting or other sport.

"Self-defense" as in personal self-defense, is not really the purpose either, although related.

The purpose of the Second Amendment is to serve as a balance of power.

Before a standing army can rule the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.

Noah Webster, An Examination into the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (1787), Reprinted in Pamphlets on the Constitution of the United States, Published During Its Discussion by the People, 1787–1788, at 56 (Paul L. Ford, ed. 1971) (1888)

The basic idea being that an armed populace serves as a counter-balance against governmental power wielded by an elected few.

This is why it is so important. No so you can have a duck hunting shotgun, or a .22 for plinking, but rather so that we can remain free.

This is the real reason why so many in power want to restrict private ownership of firearms.

This is also why they want to have background checks and/or other systems that allow the government to know who owns firearms, what kind of firearms they are, and their serial numbers - so when it comes time to confiscate those firearms (or otherwise force owners to turn them in), then they have a record of the firearms, who owns them and who probably owns others - including a way to prove in court that those firearms weren't sold to somebody else.

This is why they portray gun owners as unstable "gun nuts"; to get public support not just for these systems, but to make gun ownership unpopular and not socially acceptable, so that when it does come time to prohibit private firearm ownership altogether, they have the support from the majority of the populace to do so.

This is why they are slowly whittling away at military weapons, especially NFA weapons. And not just guns, but edged weapons, pepper spray, you name it, anything that can be used as a weapon.

You may not own a NFA weapon. You might not be into edged weapons. But the Second Amendment is about all weapons, not just guns. And it isn't about self-defense, it is about freedom from tyranny.

Remember that.

Don't let other people forget it.

Don't let other people say it is about anything else.
I could not possibly like this post more. Excellently phrased and totally on point.
 

Upcoming Events

Redmond Gun Show
Redmond, OR
Klamath Falls gun show
Klamath Falls, OR
Centralia Gun Show
Centralia, WA

New Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Back Top