Terrorist/mass shooter with body armor

[edison bulb]

Though very uncommon with everyday violent criminals, there are more cases of mass shooters and terrorists using body armor to protect themselves during their assault on innocents. I've been thinking about what one with a CHL would need to do in such an encounter. It would be difficult for many people to be able to hit the head of a moving target that is also firing at you. Since center mass shots will not be effective because of the armor, where do you recommend shooting them? I'm thinking the hip/pelvis.

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[bolus]

If they have never been shot before its going to surprise them. Imagine being out shooting at the range and then get hit in the chest with a baseball bat that you did not see coming. Its going to shake someone up quite a bit no matter how determined they are.

Plus unless you are used to shooting in the middle of an active shooter situation you are going to be in full adrenaline mode and not have the capacity to think about much.

So I'd vote aim center mass and keep shooting

 

[Medic!]

A pair of CZ-52's might help?

 

[ZA_Survivalist]

If you can get a decent groin, hip or thigh shot, they arent getting anywhere fast and will most likely bleed out (thigh) not to mention if a bone is broken they arent going to be as terroristy.

 

[decklin]

Well, most are not using body armor.
The media doesn't know what body armor looks like so any LBV is considered body armor to them.
Holmes was wearing a Blackhawk assault vest. To this day the media calls it body armor.
Also remember this. If somebody is wearing a plate carrier with no inserts or plates then it's not really body armor.

 

[albin25]

There is a 2 part test you can perform to determine if an assailant is actually wearing body armor....
1-shoot them several times in the chest
2-look for the special indicator fluid (usually red).

Lots of red and no movement.. means NO armor
No red and starting to get up.. means shoot them in the arse

 

[Mark W.]

Getting hit with anything above a .25ACP in the chest with soft body armor is like the Doc said Being hit in the chest with a full swing baseball bat. A number of people have been killed just by the absorption penetrating deep enough into the chest to damage the heart or collapse a lung. Nothing to be casual about at all. I have a 6 hour long VHS tape produced by the inventor of Second chance body armor where he shoots himself a couple dozen times (during different tests) and I can tell you the punishment the guy takes is unbelievable.

 

[Koda]

Though very uncommon with everyday violent criminals, there are more cases of mass shooters and terrorists using body armor to protect themselves during their assault on innocents. I've been thinking about what one with a CHL would need to do in such an encounter. It would be difficult for many people to be able to hit the head of a moving target that is also firing at you. Since center mass shots will not be effective because of the armor, where do you recommend shooting them? I'm thinking the hip/pelvis.

I would think if you cant hit the head under stress then you cant hit the hip/pelvis either. Bolus's comment above is correct, 2 shots to body armor is going to at least upset their attack.... which leads to an actual technique that specifically addresses the use of body armor... the Mozambique.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozambique_Drill

some people go target shooting, some people train. There are also many other shooting drills designed to simulate shooting under stress (to be practiced after marksmanship drills). The trick to overcoming shooting under stress is to get these drills in your muscle memory, including the Mozambique.

this of course is just my opinion, Im not a professional at anything

here is an excellent list of drill you can print out and train with that will build your marksmanship and simulate stress...
http://pistol-training.com/drills

 

[Velzey]

How did the cops handle the North Hollywood bank robbers? Not very well at all....Pew pew pew pew pew...Home come after 100 rounds they aint dead?
Off to the local sporting goods shop the cops went!
Then they ended up shooting the last one under the car in the ankle!

 

[CoastRange57]

So I'd vote aim center mass and keep shooting

Agreed. Shoot the whole mag and then reload. Repeat if required. While I agree with the idea of a hip/ thigh shot, it will be strictly secondary to center mass. You might even get a head shot or one through the armpit. You put enough on center mass and something is going to happen.

Bolsters the big caliber position some what.

 

[David Bowman]

Don't aim for the pelvis. It is a ring structure and as such needs to be broken in 2 places to cause enough structural damage to not support weight. Handgun calibers can't be counted on to do that

Center mass doesn't work for armored bad guys because the adrenaline you are feeling while shooting them is the same adrenaline they are charged up on while shooting at you. This is why people who have been hit in a gunfight (even while wearing body armor) can continue to fight.

This is the only solution to the tactical problem presented; ballistically introducing lead and copper into the cranial cavity, thereby disrupting the operations of the brain housing group.



Six of those eight shots in the face would put an end to any bad guy wearing body armor. The neck shot is a plus for creating hemorrhagic shock, but the two fliers (hair shot and upper chest) would have no effect.

Body Armor or not, don't panic and shoot them in the face

 

[SHPD_Retired]

If they have never been shot before its going to surprise them. Imagine being out shooting at the range and then get hit in the chest with a baseball bat that you did not see coming. Its going to shake someone up quite a bit no matter how determined they are.

Plus unless you are used to shooting in the middle of an active shooter situation you are going to be in full adrenaline mode and not have the capacity to think about much.

So I'd vote aim center mass and keep shooting

I agree completely as I have been in a shooting situation. With that being said if you want an alternative I would suggest shooting for the thigh. This would put the person down and hopefully hit the femoral artery and he would bleed out very quickly.

 

[Joe13]

Body armor is where 2 in the chest and 1 to the head came from I'm pretty sure.

 

[Certaindeaf]

.the two fliers (hair shot and upper chest) would have no effect.

..

I don't think I'd want to get shot or stabbed in the carotid artery.

 

[RicInOR]

For Police yes, they go towards these situations.

But what we have seen is that often the Bad Guys just take their own lives when confronted.

Since I am not a LEO, my goals remain the same - I want the situation to stop, and the best way may be for me to leave ... and to fight my way out only as necessary.

One thing competition shoots reveals, is that if you are waiting to asses where you hit - did you hit steel and wait for it to fall - then you are reacting to the situation and behind the curve.

Even if you can not kill them, just showing a FA may just buy you a second or two. And what are you trying to accomplish. If you are planning to kill them, then I recommend you have a discussion with a lawyer. I have the mind set of stopping them - stopping the situation. I believe we have enough potential for this that a hand gun is a necessity. But I want to stay alert enough - to think like Jackie Chan - that I can use what is available to get out of the situation.

What will your situation demand? If you can't leave, can you get into a supported position? Will you have cover, or just concealment?
Ie, crouch or kneel behind a concrete planter - using the planter to support your weapon?
If you need to go prone and shoot under a car, could you - have you in training? If you shoot the floor just in front of their feet, where will the fragments of your bullet go? Have you ever shot the side or top of one of those plastic barrels at a range - where does your bullet go aftre that?
Can you hit an 8 in target at distance when supported? A moving 8 in target?


What if the bad guy is just your typical American - you know - FAT. Similar to the body armor - just a bit less protective. Will your handgun & round choice generate enough energy to stop them, now. So they know they are stopped? Or, might it kill them, but they are not dead yet - taking seconds or minutes to die?


Can you hit a moving 8in target at distance while you are moving?


If it comes down to it and you have to fire, any hits on the BG are good for you.

 

[tac]

If it comes down to it and you have to fire, any hits on the BG are good for you.

We were always told that a hit anywhere is better than the nearest miss, so we were taught to shoot at any part of the body that was exposed. I never detected anybody who was overly keen on making a run for it, let alone taking any further part in the proceedings, after taking a 7.62x51 bullet through the carelessly-exposed foot/ankle. That there ol' 150gr FMJ sure do mess up an appendage. One guy I recall, lying along a ditch line with his back to us shooting at somebody else took a bullet directly through the sole of the foot, and it exited under his eye. He didn't walk away.

If a head-shot presented itself, then take it, was the call. If you have time to make a deliberate spot hit, shoot 'em in the eye. Any eye. Remember, even a lowly .22LR in the eye is going to make a lasting difference to the hittee.

A good aim point was halfway between the earhole and the tip of the nose - we just loved profile shots like that. Face wounds bleed like a fire-hose.

The vast majority on non-professionals react to getting hit by coming totally to pieces, since they are not inured to the thought of becoming a casualty. The military, however, know that your buddy/ies are going to do the best for you that they can to keep you going if you are injured - scumbag perps/terrs have no such built-in trust of their equally scumbag-y pals.

tac

 

[Ura-Ki]

I can fully vouch for a hit to body armor getting your attention! I took a 7.62X39 to the chest at very close range, so close I felt the muzzle blast! It knocked me on my arse and cracked three ribs! It took me fully ten min to get my breath back and get up on my feet and back in the fight! I can honestly say I have never been so scared, or jacked up on adrenaline as that day! That dude hit me perfect center mass it was my off set angle that saved me from getting my sternum cracked or worse my heart stopped! The dent in my kevlar/ceramic was almost an inch deep! Could have been worse, It could have been my brain bucket!

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

start edc an AR pistol in 300blk or 5.56 with xm995.

 

[Ura-Ki]

I have no experience with the effects of a pistol round against body armor, I'm still willing to bet its gonna get there attention! Maybe enough to cause them to turn or move into a better position for you so you can line up a better shot! We were taught to hit what ever part the baddies were dumb enough to expose. A hit to a pinky finger is gonna hurt enough to slow a baddie down some, again, that may be enough to come up with a better point of aim!
Never did like the standardized M-4 and really didn't care for the M-16 before it. Not that they wasn't accurate, but that little pill would ice pick almost every single time! When We finally got some old retired armory updated M-14's that changed every thing! Man, that 7.62 ended fights a lot faster most of the time, plus it could out penetrate and score hits through things the little 5.56 couldn't hope for!

 

[mjbskwim]

Don't aim for the pelvis. It is a ring structure and as such needs to be broken in 2 places to cause enough structural damage to not support weight. Handgun calibers can't be counted on to do that

I'm sorry but can you remind me of what the bullet has to go thru to get to the pelvis?
And aren't there many arteries that carry blood to the digestive system and reproductive systems?
Who needs to break the pelvis?
I would think you would want to go to center mass to get the guy on the ground. A head shot ,unless you are a perfect shot,can send rounds into the crowd down range. Center mass would be easier to hit,then when the BG is on the ground,the parts without armor are exposed to you better.
If you have had a hernia operation in your lower abdomen,then you understand why I wouldn't hesitate to try to shoot below the vest