Terrorist/mass shooter with body armor

[Certaindeaf]

Just tip them over. Always fun to watch turtles turtling.

 

[David Bowman]

I'm sorry but can you remind me of what the bullet has to go thru to get to the pelvis?
And aren't there many arteries that carry blood to the digestive system and reproductive systems?
Who needs to break the pelvis?
I would think you would want to go to center mass to get the guy on the ground. A head shot ,unless you are a perfect shot,can send rounds into the crowd down range. Center mass would be easier to hit,then when the BG is on the ground,the parts without armor are exposed to you better.
If you have had a hernia operation in your lower abdomen,then you understand why I wouldn't hesitate to try to shoot below the vest

There isn't enough good meat to stop an attacker from continuing to attack if shot in the pelvic region.

Like I said, the very adrenalin that is driving you in your response is driving the attacker as well. The body armor is going to stop those pistol rounds and while the person may feel them, they are going to be in an adrenalized state of existence that at the moment will tell the brain to disregard those messages of pain and allow them to continue fighting. If that adrenalin is also fueled by drugs; then the attacker may feel nothing at all.

Being shot in the pelvis would take you some time to bleed out; unless you hit the femoral artery. And I don't mean just nicked it, you gotta blow it in half.

You don't have to be a perfect shot to hit them in the head. I train students to make head shots while moving all the time. Could you miss? Sure. Would you hit a friendly? Maybe, but my guess is there won't be a crowd around a madman who is shooting people. Your bullets will find a home if you show them the way.

 

[decklin]

There isn't enough good meat to stop an attacker from continuing to attack if shot in the pelvic region.

Like I said, the very adrenalin that is driving you in your response is driving the attacker as well. The body armor is going to stop those pistol rounds and while the person may feel them, they are going to be in an adrenalized state of existence that at the moment will tell the brain to disregard those messages of pain and allow them to continue fighting. If that adrenalin is also fueled by drugs; then the attacker may feel nothing at all.

Being shot in the pelvis would take you some time to bleed out; unless you hit the femoral artery. And I don't mean just nicked it, you gotta blow it in half.

You don't have to be a perfect shot to hit them in the head. I train students to make head shots while moving all the time. Could you miss? Sure. Would you hit a friendly? Maybe, but my guess is there won't be a crowd around a madman who is shooting people. Your bullets will find a home if you show them the way.

Any round can penetrate body armor. Armor is not 100%.
Source: Personal experience.
Baghdad, Iraq 2009.
Battalion Commander took a .22 through his plate carrier. The round penetrated the admin pouch with notebook, through the 9mm soft pad (missed his ESAPI plate), and entered his upper chest. The round broke through his chest cavity.
He survived and we grew a newfound respect for smaller calibers.

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Yeap, Mark beat me to this one, a good hit in the vest with a service caliber is probably going to hurt like crazy and maybe break some bones. The little trauma plate in my armor does not impress me as being all that much extra 'protection' for the sternum.

Aiming for legs and getting the bad guys down on the ground is not a real bad idea; remember how fast Lee Oswald went down with a single .38 to the abdomen from Jack Ruby's S&W bodyguard's 2" barrel?

If you're shooting something like a .45 to the legs, it's gonna mess the femur up if you hit it, maybe turn the foot around backwards and it's awkward to run like that. Probably gentle 'em down quite a bit.

Don't forget that if a suspect's positioned in front of a crowd, you might want to go prone and be shooting upward at an angle, so any over-penetrating and missing rounds could fly above the background people. It's a pretty stable position, too. Just don't miss, because maneuverability is pretty limited down there.

Last, a note about the North Hollywood bank robbers, those guys had made their vests using plates, so they weren't standing there taking all that with just soft Kevlar. If you watch the video again sometime you'll notice how bulky both of them look, and that's why.

Getting hit with anything above a .25ACP in the chest with soft body armor is like the Doc said Being hit in the chest with a full swing baseball bat. A number of people have been killed just by the absorption penetrating deep enough into the chest to damage the heart or collapse a lung. Nothing to be casual about at all...

 

[Pandaz3]

Just shoot them where you can and shoot them again, they'll get tired of it and direct all their attention at you! Saving me and the rest cowering in the back (though I would have my gun out.)

 

[Bon Sauvage]

If you were sure that the target was wearing a vest and were presented with a frontal pelvic shot I would take it. The shape of the pelvis will act like a scoop and direct the round up into the vitals, or so I have been taught.

 

[Buster1]

IMO, there's no perfect training and no perfect answer other than to train/shoot as much as you possibly can, carry a suitable gun (not a big fan of pocket guns as a primary weapon in this day and age), and have your mind made up beforehand that you're willing to take the fight to someone if needed, and keep shooting until the threat is stopped.

Shoot for the biggest target first (center mass) and if that isn't working, try something else.

 

[Buster1]

This may have been posted before, but it shows crazy people can fight through being shot with body armor on. Also serves as a good reminder of what not to do at the range....

 

[Trailboss]

I hunt rabbits with my carry piece. Great practice when they are running. Gotta be spot on to get one and it's great practice on moving targets. Good eating as well. I'm aiming for a rabbit head and hitting most. Shooting at a terrorist's head uses the same skills but it's a larger target.

 

[fxdc]

For Police yes, they go towards these situations.

But what we have seen is that often the Bad Guys just take their own lives when confronted.

Since I am not a LEO, my goals remain the same - I want the situation to stop, and the best way may be for me to leave ... and to fight my way out only as necessary.

One thing competition shoots reveals, is that if you are waiting to asses where you hit - did you hit steel and wait for it to fall - then you are reacting to the situation and behind the curve.

Even if you can not kill them, just showing a FA may just buy you a second or two. And what are you trying to accomplish. If you are planning to kill them, then I recommend you have a discussion with a lawyer. I have the mind set of stopping them - stopping the situation. I believe we have enough potential for this that a hand gun is a necessity. But I want to stay alert enough - to think like Jackie Chan - that I can use what is available to get out of the situation.

What will your situation demand? If you can't leave, can you get into a supported position? Will you have cover, or just concealment?
Ie, crouch or kneel behind a concrete planter - using the planter to support your weapon?
If you need to go prone and shoot under a car, could you - have you in training? If you shoot the floor just in front of their feet, where will the fragments of your bullet go? Have you ever shot the side or top of one of those plastic barrels at a range - where does your bullet go aftre that?
Can you hit an 8 in target at distance when supported? A moving 8 in target?


What if the bad guy is just your typical American - you know - FAT. Similar to the body armor - just a bit less protective. Will your handgun & round choice generate enough energy to stop them, now. So they know they are stopped? Or, might it kill them, but they are not dead yet - taking seconds or minutes to die?


Can you hit a moving 8in target at distance while you are moving?


If it comes down to it and you have to fire, any hits on the BG are good for you.

Just another day at A USPSA MATCH, When we're putting on the western states championship match, the man on man side match was a good example of stress and staying focused.

Mozambique the A hole, in ment A zone
LOL

 

[soberups]

If you were sure that the target was wearing a vest and were presented with a frontal pelvic shot I would take it. The shape of the pelvis will act like a scoop and direct the round up into the vitals, or so I have been taught.

A solid hit to the hip bone wont kill someone immediately, but it will turn them from a two-legged psycho into a one-legged psycho. No matter how crazy they might be or what kind of drugs they are on, taking one of their legs away will put them onto the ground and make it pretty tough for them to get back up. And if you miss bone, you might still hit an artery or blow their junk off.

 

[fxdc]

A solid hit to the hip bone wont kill someone immediately, but it will turn them from a two-legged psycho into a one-legged psycho. No matter how crazy they might be or what kind of drugs they are on, taking one of their legs away will put them onto the ground and make it pretty tough for them to get back up. And if you miss bone, you might still hit an artery or blow their junk off.

+1 on th JUNK!
LMAO

 

[fxdc]

I hunt rabbits with my carry piece. Great practice when they are running. Gotta be spot on to get one and it's great practice on moving targets. Good eating as well. I'm aiming for a rabbit head and hitting most. Shooting at a terrorist's head uses the same skills but it's a larger target.

Love it back in Nevada (tons of rabbits ) we did the same thing with shotguns ,but we were wearing our race guns and would do transition drills.

LOL
Rabbit hunting with shotguns and 38 super for supper LMAO.

What, Konig and Leatham probably did the same in AZ in the day.

 

[No_Regerts]

I've never shot a man with body armor on, but I have had to anchor large animals and a hit to the shoulder or pelvic girdle is devastating.

 

[Norm0931]

One of the benefits of carrying these speedy little bastards. Skip to 2:24 for the actual tests.