Solicitors-and how not to deal wit them?

[Blitzkrieg]

I'm always very polite and prompt with the solicitors and Jehovah's Witnesses. I simply tell them I'm not interested and point them to the house directly across the street, informing them that the gentleman over there would be very interested in what they selling or spewing. Across the street from me lives temperamental, unfortunately now somewhat senile, mostly mean and very lonely 86 year old man. Without fail he will invite them in and discuss Korea, guns, "that n***er in the White House" (his words, not mine), his days on the city council or how we need to start a revolution in this country. I have a direct view into his window where he sits at his kitchen table with these people. I'll laugh and watch as these people squirm and try to figure out an exit as he waves his arms around, getting worked up about whatever issue is on his mind. So far the longest he's had one "trapped" has been nearly 2 hours.

Sounds like DSHS but with a down home twist!

 

[Blitzkrieg]

there's nothing wrong with protecting your domicile, there is something wrong with boxing in cars, refusing to allow people to leave, and then demanding they open their vehicle for your inspection as a condition of leaving your property.

that's the only thing I've taken exception to this thread.

If they are trespassing I have no problems with it

 

[Blitzkrieg]

That's what the law says



you can also make the case he held them hostage. If he were making a lawful citizens arrest he would've delivered to a public officer, instead he was simply being a bully by making them open their car to him and refusing to allow them to leave.

It is not trespassing to enter someone's driveway in plain view to contact them at their house. in fact it's standard to do so because how else can you request permission to be on the property without contacting the owner? unless he has an active restraining order against the people on the property or has filed them notice of trespass they're not trespassing when they come to the front door in full view to ask to talk to the owner.

someone when coming to your door can be

>a hunter or fishing asking permission to use your land
>a census taker
>a cop who wants to ask you some questions
>A courrier
>a coroner's assistant informing you a relative has died

being a young person, I supplement my income by doing simple tasks like serving court process. so imagine this. an attorney I work for as a process server, gets a complaint from Silver hand's neighbor, and the neighbor decides to file a suit. by law for the suit to be valid Silver Hand has to be served the notice in person.

no problem, I drive out to his house, come to his door and knock politely, he's not home, great
so I get in my car to leave, but here comes silver down the driveway. blocks me on, and asks what I'm doing. I politely explain that I'm here to serve him a process, and then silver demands to search my car. I ask if we can get a deputy over to sort this out, but Silver won't hear none of it, he demands to search my car, and I don't want him to. now since silver is a member here, I presume he owns some guns. i see a bulge under his jacket... now from my point of view, I did nothing wrong, he's obviously not happy, he won't let me leave without allowing him to search my personal effects, now I think he has a gun. lets' say i have a CHL and am packing too... what do I do? my only effective option is to allow him to search my car, but getting out of my car may tip him off i'm armed, I can't leave, and he's becoming belligerent. my only option is now to employ that firearm against him to allow me to depart the scene.

see silverhand thinks he's "protecting his family" he's actually putting himself in danger by unnessecarily escalating a situation. I've no problem with protecting your land, I've done it, i;ve also confronted trespassers while watching other people's property. nearly all the time I just ask them to leave and not come back and give them a phone number to reach the owner at if they wish to talk to him. there is no point in escalating a situation, and creating one that turns you into a aggressor-felon and making the supposed "trespasser" the innocent victim who has to defend themselves.

You think like a modern liberal lawyer. The Founders would not recognize your "logic"...

 

[EMNofSeattle]

If they are trespassing I have no problems with it

Again, coming to your door to speak to you is not trespassing.

By the way, if you're pulling the founders crap, when the founding fathers where controlling the country the law was based on English common law which stated trespass upon premises only applied if the trespasser intended to damage your property. In fact in English common law enclosing land was frowned upon and people had general rights to access land outside of curtilage.

Lets say this again, the law gives you no right to hold people hostage, that's a felony. If you detain someone's movement, even on your land outside the limited protection on citizens arrest justification, they are justified in using force, including deadly force to end your detention. If you attempt that and a police complaint is made against you, you can be prosecuted, if you attempt a citizens arrest you can be held liable for massive settlements in civil court. Being on your property does not exempt you from the criminal code. You are allowed to come to the door on foot to talk to a property owner, signs notwithstanding, if you don't like that you may tell them to leave, if they don't leave they may be arrested, if they come back after being warned they may be arrested. First time on your driveway you may not hold them hostage. A citizens arrest would be blocking their car and calling police. You have no right to search or inventory their car or do so while coercing the owner. That's a crime. You cannot impound their car while they are occupying it, that's illegal. Unless you want you and your family living penniless on section 8 and food stamps with bill collectors for your victims attorneys calling non stop, you should not go about doing stupid things. You cannot be trespassing if you have no choice to leave...... You cannot remain unlawfully if the owner won't let you not remain unlawfully.

 

[Silver Hand]

Again, coming to your door to speak to you is not trespassing.

By the way, if you're pulling the founders crap, when the founding fathers where controlling the country the law was based on English common law which stated trespass upon premises only applied if the trespasser intended to damage your property. In fact in English common law enclosing land was frowned upon and people had general rights to access land outside of curtilage.

Lets say this again, the law gives you no right to hold people hostage, that's a felony. If you detain someone's movement, even on your land outside the limited protection on citizens arrest justification, they are justified in using force, including deadly force to end your detention. If you attempt that and a police complaint is made against you, you can be prosecuted, if you attempt a citizens arrest you can be held liable for massive settlements in civil court. Being on your property does not exempt you from the criminal code. You are allowed to come to the door on foot to talk to a property owner, signs notwithstanding, if you don't like that you may tell them to leave, if they don't leave they may be arrested, if they come back after being warned they may be arrested. First time on your driveway you may not hold them hostage. A citizens arrest would be blocking their car and calling police. You have no right to search or inventory their car or do so while coercing the owner. That's a crime. You cannot impound their car while they are occupying it, that's illegal. Unless you want you and your family living penniless on section 8 and food stamps with bill collectors for your victims attorneys calling non stop, you should not go about doing stupid things. You cannot be trespassing if you have no choice to leave...... You cannot remain unlawfully if the owner won't let you not remain unlawfully.

Next time you see a sign that says No trespassing or keep out, Think Twice you have no idea what is coming next. Not everyone provides as much consideration as Myself. My neighbors have the same sense of security and of there right to protect themselves, and have provided the courts with an unlawful tress pass case just recently.
Be reasonable, Respect people and there property. You are entitled to the first move. Be it intelligent or not, Your key board won't change the outcome If you find yourself in a position with someone behind a drug lab.
I am not alone when it comes to the fact, Keep Out means Just that.
I mean it and I mean it at any cost.

I was not brought up in this time frame I am an old dog and I bite. If you have no respect for me, my place my home. I care nothing about you. When you cross that line you become a threat - I deal with that action with the reasoning, respect and the consideration I was taught as a child and what would be expected of me to provide to others. I consider anyone not able to understand the written warning to have no respect, to have never been taught the consideration of others. There for a Con, Doper, a thief or worse.
Think twice about your rights and what is to be settled in a court of law after the fact.
Keep in mind your own safety there is not enough money to keep criminals in jail you may soon have the problems inviting themselves into your home.
How Will You Respond?
Silver Hand

 

[Burt Gummer]

I would love to go to Silver Hand's homestead at 3am wearing a Michael Meyers costume, roaming around outside.






























Of course, only after he was disarmed, no knives or throwing weapons, no clubs, no bows/arrows, pointy things and he was tried to a chair at the window LOL. Oh, and no dogs that bite.

 

[Redcap]

Again, coming to your door to speak to you is not trespassing.

By the way, if you're pulling the founders crap, when the founding fathers where controlling the country the law was based on English common law which stated trespass upon premises only applied if the trespasser intended to damage your property. In fact in English common law enclosing land was frowned upon and people had general rights to access land outside of curtilage.

Lets say this again, the law gives you no right to hold people hostage, that's a felony. If you detain someone's movement, even on your land outside the limited protection on citizens arrest justification, they are justified in using force, including deadly force to end your detention. If you attempt that and a police complaint is made against you, you can be prosecuted, if you attempt a citizens arrest you can be held liable for massive settlements in civil court. Being on your property does not exempt you from the criminal code. You are allowed to come to the door on foot to talk to a property owner, signs notwithstanding, if you don't like that you may tell them to leave, if they don't leave they may be arrested, if they come back after being warned they may be arrested. First time on your driveway you may not hold them hostage. A citizens arrest would be blocking their car and calling police. You have no right to search or inventory their car or do so while coercing the owner. That's a crime. You cannot impound their car while they are occupying it, that's illegal. Unless you want you and your family living penniless on section 8 and food stamps with bill collectors for your victims attorneys calling non stop, you should not go about doing stupid things. You cannot be trespassing if you have no choice to leave...... You cannot remain unlawfully if the owner won't let you not remain unlawfully.

Are you trying to tell me that I must tolerate unwanted people on the property that I own?

 

[EMNofSeattle]

Are you trying to tell me that I must tolerate unwanted people on the property that I own?

define "tolerate"

I'm saying it is not trespassing to enter someone's property to establish contact with the property owner for lawful business. if they're there the first time and have never been told not to enter it's not trespassing. if you do not wish to "tolerate them" you can inform them they are trespassing and ask them to leave or to file a written notice of trespass to them. if they come back now it's trespass.

I've talked about this with a friend of mine who is a deputy sheriff before, they will not arrest or cite for trespass on open lands or on a driveway breaking no other laws. they will only warn, and then the party can be arrested if they come back without obtaining written permission from the owner.

threatening someone with a gun or attempting to arrest or detain them on premises for simple trespass is legally questionable, if they wish to leave your property, they're no longer trespassing and must be allowed to leave.

and you should never conduct a citizens arrest anyway, it is not to be attempted, because unlike a security guard or police officer, who's employer assumes liability for a bad arrest, when you arrest someone your self, you are liable, and there is many more ways you can screw up a citizens arrest than you can do it correctly. especially people who I've talked to who keep handcuffs for a "citizens arrest" oh lord, you use restraints on anyone.... 2 months later the process servers will be "trespassing" on your land to tell you you're being sued because their wrist is numb or whatever.... I can think of three citizens arrests in the last couple years, two of them the people who tried lost huge amounts of money in civil court, the only one that went well was an off duty security guard who broke up an ATM robbery and the woman being robbed was a witness on his behalf...

 

[BAMCIS]

Jehovah's Witnesses woke me up one day (working graveyard at the time) I answered the door in my underwear. SLAM. They never came back.

 

[Burt Gummer]

I've answered to sign for UPS shipments in underwear LOL. The look is like WTF, put some clothes on - but if I am standing in my own house, screw 'em.

 

[teflon6string]

Jehovah's Witnesses woke me up one day (working graveyard at the time) I answered the door in my underwear. SLAM. They never came back.

Aha! That was my mistake... I answered without the underwear and now they won't leave me alone!

 

[Redcap]

define "tolerate"

I'm saying it is not trespassing to enter someone's property to establish contact with the property owner for lawful business. if they're there the first time and have never been told not to enter it's not trespassing. if you do not wish to "tolerate them" you can inform them they are trespassing and ask them to leave or to file a written notice of trespass to them. if they come back now it's trespass.

I have 46ft of driveway before the first bull gate. "Lawful business" ends there.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Again, coming to your door to speak to you is not trespassing.

By the way, if you're pulling the founders crap, when the founding fathers where controlling the country the law was based on English common law which stated trespass upon premises only applied if the trespasser intended to damage your property. In fact in English common law enclosing land was frowned upon and people had general rights to access land outside of curtilage.

Lets say this again, the law gives you no right to hold people hostage, that's a felony. If you detain someone's movement, even on your land outside the limited protection on citizens arrest justification, they are justified in using force, including deadly force to end your detention. If you attempt that and a police complaint is made against you, you can be prosecuted, if you attempt a citizens arrest you can be held liable for massive settlements in civil court. Being on your property does not exempt you from the criminal code. You are allowed to come to the door on foot to talk to a property owner, signs notwithstanding, if you don't like that you may tell them to leave, if they don't leave they may be arrested, if they come back after being warned they may be arrested. First time on your driveway you may not hold them hostage. A citizens arrest would be blocking their car and calling police. You have no right to search or inventory their car or do so while coercing the owner. That's a crime. You cannot impound their car while they are occupying it, that's illegal. Unless you want you and your family living penniless on section 8 and food stamps with bill collectors for your victims attorneys calling non stop, you should not go about doing stupid things. You cannot be trespassing if you have no choice to leave...... You cannot remain unlawfully if the owner won't let you not remain unlawfully.

I believe in sovereign property rights.. and not all of the Founders basis was English common law, some went back to Roman concepts. A man's home is his castle, and I believe that starts at the sidewalk or property boundaries. Texas now allows property owners to shoot illegal trespassers who are stealing, etc.. proper and just as society crumbles

 

[Bam]

Wow, I see this thread being introduced as evidence in a trial someday.

 

[Silver Hand]

Speaking of United Parcel Service :}
They gave me an order to cut the branches on my second growth dug fir trees or they would no longer deliver. I told the old boy driving the truck to go figure something out when it comes to my mail and not to come back [what a blank look took place on that guys face] and that my drive was engineered and built to sustain traffic under 10,000 lbs and he was now officially notified of the risk. I do every thing possible to have my mail delivered using another carrier. It turns out it is always at a lesser cost to me for doing so.
You may not know it but we do have freedom of choice in this country also.
Silver Hand

 

[Silver Hand]

Not a worth wile post.

 

[EMNofSeattle]

The point being missed is invited business, UPS, the water meter guys cops all could have legal legit reasons to come up on your property at times. Lets be clear lawful business as you put it does "NOT" mean private business rights.
Selling magazine, asking to mow a lawn or JosephsWhinesses should see the signs and leave " PERIOD" . I should not have to tell you to leave the laws in Oregon. Washington and Idaho are all clear, no soliciting and no trespassing signs are legal notice in themselves for you to not be there.

And sorry but you are wrong if it says NO Trespassing on a sign or no Soliciting that is the only notice anyone needs to give you.
There is no law that says you have to be told by a person. That is how private property all over the United States is protected.
You think Joe Bob, has to patrol his 1000 acres each day to tell people the should not be there when they already saw his signs?
In fact if you do not heed the signs you invoke a host of rights to the land owner to remove you.

I commend you wanting to work, but seriously if a sign says no access to the property as in private property or no tresspassing, or do not knock on the door as no solicitation. The law says that all they need to tell you and you should turn and leave.

Again you're not seeing the forest through the trees. You cannot force people to remain on your property and meet arbitrary requirements. This whole argument started because silver insists he has a legal right to search the personal effects of anyone on his property and to not allow them to leave until they do. He does not have that right. Please cite a law that gives you a right to restrain others on your property against their will

 

[Silver Hand]

Again you're not seeing the forest through the trees. You cannot force people to remain on your property and meet arbitrary requirements. This whole argument started because silver insists he has a legal right to search the personal effects of anyone on his property and to not allow them to leave until they do. He does not have that right. Please cite a law that gives you a right to restrain others on your property against their will

I never said any such thing. You are full of B.S. and lies. don't drag me into the fact your B.S. post all fell apart. I like the one best where you will use deadly force against me. In post # 16

You are the one blowing smoke, Etc. etc.
If I came on to your land for lawful purposes, and you blocked me in and refused to allow me to leave without searching my car I would call the police before you did, and if you tried to prevent me I will use deadly force to escape your illegal confinement of me. the law does not allow you to kidnap people and set conditions for their release regardless of what the mall ninjas at your posse commitatus meetings tell you. The law allows you to demand someone leave your property, you're only authorized to arrest someone and deliver them to a public officer, not arrest them and demand you allow them to violate their rights.

You are sick !!! And This Is Why We Post Our Land
Silver Hand

 

[EMNofSeattle]

I have a long driveway over 2/10s miles or so. Jehovah Witnesses were coming off my place after passing several various non welcoming signs on the way in. On my way back from town and in my driveway I blocked there rig, as there were three of them in the car and in no way could they pass. I said to them I did not know them from a thief the laughter started in the rear seat then the passenger. I demanded there attention indicating they were trespassing and again saying I do not know you 'OPEN YOUR TRUNK' I want a look inside. This they could not believe, I was verbally forceful and indicated there choice was to do so or I would call the Sheriff and press charges for trespassing. It worked so well they have never come back and if they forget I will press charges.

so tell me what that means? because to me it means "I blocked them in and demanded they open their trunk"

and then cite what law provides for you to do that

 

[Trlsmn]

I open the door, as soon as they start their sell I talk over them saying thanks not interested and shut the door in their face. Phone solicitors I just hang up on.