So many variables, so little data!

[CHLChris]

I'm trying to find a published load for 40 S&W minor that stays around 130-135 power factor. Maybe 155 grains at 875fps. I'm surprised that I can't find much info on such a load.

3-5 kinds of primers
30+ appropriate powders
dozens of bullets

The math says there would be thousands of possible recipes, but I just can't find enough published data to pull from. Do I search and search for the right data? Or...

Are there secrets about interchangeability that I just don't know yet. For example, are small pistol primers roughly the same? Are there powders that are analogous enough to use that data? Do all bullets of the same weight behave the same?

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[Uberdillo]

This sounds like the kind of problem/anxiety that a personal chronograph would solve. Or maybe I'm not understanding the question. The concept of an ideal load at a given velocity seems like a bit of a red herring given the nature of reloading.

We're sort of pushed to think of powders as having a min and a max published load along with the min and max published velocity. The important part is the range in between, especially when you're trying to tailor your rounds to some specification like power factor. So if you see your velocity for power factor near the median charge for a powder that's available to you and maybe you've seen recommended elsewhere a few times, you're probably safe to experiment with it. You won't always, and some may never, have the same velocity out of their gun for a given charge, like in the case of a reloading manual that publishes a "most accurate load."

Two other factors that can greatly reduce the number of choices for a lot of people are availability and price. I'm more likely to go with a mix of both when choosing components, buying what I can when I see a good sale.

So the first thing I see when I search online for ".40 S&W minor" is people talking about using WST or Titegroup and a 180 gr HP, FMJ, or plated projectile from their favorite manufacturer. Whether I'm competing or not, I do a fairly thorough search online, not necessarily looking for exact recipes so much as looking for trends and answering the question "what components, even individually, are working for the most amount of people?" Then I look up some manufacturer's reloading data and verify whether velocity data for the min and max for a couple potential recipes will work for what I want to do.

One thing about choosing powders that was drilled into me initially is that there are fast burning powders like Titegroup and Bullseye which often have both a very small window between min and max charge and since they are very fast burning, it means it often takes very little powder. Depending on how impeccable your reloading habits are and your powder measuring system, that can be hazardous in terms of overcharging or double charging whereas a bulkier powder might simply overflow the case if a double-charge were to occur.

Generally, bullets of the same type and same weight should behave "similarly" enough to not be dangerous, but always work up. I could tell you that in my handgun using Unique, the plated bullets I use go 20-30 FPS slower than full metal jacket, but to you that's meaningless because projectile performance may vary more between manufacturers than type and likely vary with the handgun as well.

The differences between lead and jacketed is a pretty common topic so I'd search for that. It's hard to find a satisfying answer when you can't specifically find lead data, but again, you work up.

I have a bunch of different primers and I haven't used them all yet so when it comes time to switch, I'll be working up my loads again since I don't have any good data myself. One thing I do know is that Tula small pistol primers, at least two years ago, were a rather hard primer that didn't do well with match guns or guns that otherwise had lightened hammers/strikers in them. If they weren't seated all the way it would only compound the issue. For most people it was a non-issue.

There is interchangeability between select powders. One simple interchangeability is that HP-38 is the exact same powder as Winchester 231. I would be skeptical of anyone that tells you it's a "secret" as it's a pretty hot topic within the hobby. Don't get confused by burn rates early on. There are some burn rate charts out there where you might be shown "equivalence," but they are still chemically different powders and no one in their right mind is going to suggest using the load data for one "similar" powder when the actual data is available (unless you're wildcatting or something).

The main thing I know is you can definitely spend more time overthinking the perfect load than actually loading and shooting. I'd want to be confident that I was making a good and SAFE choice, regardless of whether I was using tried and trued components or maybe a less popular powder with good looking data (the Ramshot powders come to mind).

This isn't to say I haven't thought a lot about my purchases in advance, but what my chronograph has shown me is that all the stuff I bought on sale when I did works just fine for my needs no matter how many hours I have spent afterwards dreaming of finding some more perfect combination and that kind of relief is worth something.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Do you want a target load that reliably functions the pistol or an actual load that makes minor power factor in your pistol?
For the first, just load down until unreliable and then load back up until it is. For the latter you'll need a chronograph or perhaps a calibrated pendulum.

 

[Steve M]

The slowest 155gr load that I have chrono data for is a starting load for SR-4756 going 919FPS from my Glock 27. Most starting loads were giving me ~950FPS.

My Lyman #49 manual has six starting loads that are 881 FPS or less from a 4" barrel with a 155gr jacketed Silvertip bullet. This is with Bullseye, W231, Unique, N350, 3N37, and Blue Dot.

 

[CHLChris]

I'm just a math nerd at heart and there should be thousands of recipes for each caliber when you look at all of the variables. But there are not nearly that many published recipes available.

Do all plated bullets of a single weight behave the same?
Do all small pistol primers behave the same?

 

[CHLChris]

I'm trying to build DOWN a 40 minor load and having issues finding published data getting velocities around 750-800fps.

 

[Hayshaker]

Just pick a powder. Barrel length and bullet wgt will make a difference as to velocity and etc., unless your target shooting in competition. It's not worth worrying about. Personal defense will not make much difference on which load you use ~~ hitting the target in the proper place is the important part.

 

[PiratePast40]

A Google search shows that others are doing the same thing. I would think that the reloading section of the Brian Enos forum would be the most helpful.

My experience with the "bunny fart" loads is that you may need to bump them up for best accuracy. In my M&P 9, I'm at a 136 PF with 147 grain bullets. Slower is less accurate with my particular load.

 

[CHLChris]

I'm thinking maybe I can just "build down" a load. I will study up on this before doing it, but choosing a 180gr JHP, a Federal primer, and Titegroup, I will start with the low end recommended charge and run several charge weights lower up to the point that interwebz peeps are saying they run the load safely.

Then, at the range I'll focus on velocity in the chrono and function of the gun, working my way down and keeping an eye out for problems.

 

[Member 5605]

I've been using IMR-PB with 140gr TC cast lead bullets and the pop out around 900-950fps and will fail to eject if you limp wrist it. They are mouse fart loads, accurate as can be and are easy on the hands and wrist. Shoot them out of an XD 4.25" and 3.3".

They do shoot well, low powder charge and smoke a little because PB isn't clean burning but it does burn everything... or maybe it's the bullet lube that smokes... I dunno.

I can't find my chrono data for that load though but memory serves me it's close to what I listed above.

 

[CHLChris]

My Lyman #49 manual has six starting loads that are 881 FPS or less from a 4" barrel with a 155gr jacketed Silvertip bullet. This is with Bullseye, W231, Unique, N350, 3N37, and Blue Dot.

Yep, I have the same manual. I got 2 lbs of Titegroup with my reloading setup so I'm gonna start there and Lyman doesn't have any 40 options for that powder, only 9mm.

So then I also went to Hodgdon and checked out their recipes for Titegroup online. They "require" Winchester SP primers, which I won't use because of their hardness compared to Federal 100 or Remington 1-1/2. Also, their starting load to max load range for each bullet weight only gave about a 100fps difference. That's waaayyy too conservative, in my ignorant newbie opinion. I won't go above their listed max charge weights, but I'd sure like to go below their minimums.

 

[Tilos]

Titegroup vs VV-N320 for 40 cal Limited

 

[PiratePast40]

I also found Titegroup to be dirty when at lower loads. Since it's a fast powder, you can get in trouble quickly with just a few grains heavy or if you have just a bit lower OAL. I'm certainly no expert and don't have a ton of experience. However, I'm not sure that something slower like Power Pistol or 231 might not be a better choice. My thinking is that since you want to be at a slower velocity, you would want a powder that continues to burn as the projectile moves down the barrel instead of one that gives up all it's energy right away. I'm thinking that it would also give you a wider range to work with in regards to powder weight.

I know you didn't ask for all that, just trying to help out a fellow reloader.

 

[oremike]

If you want a minor load why not shoot a 9mm? For punching holes in paper and ringing steel the 9 minor load is great. When I've got to clear a pin table or flip a dueling tree I use my 40. I guess what I'm saying is why make the 40 into a 9? Wouldn't your perceived needs be better served with a 9? After all, the correct number of guns is, just one more.

 

[CHLChris]

I've got a Sub2000 gen2 in 40S&W that I'm gonna use for USPSA pistol caliber carbine. Thus, maybe you're right that a slower powder would be better since I'm pushing the bullet 16". I just want a round that will cycle the action and have the lowest possible recoil.

Maybe I'd save the TG for 9mm loads and 40 major loads. I'll look into that, thanks, @PiratePast40 .

 

[Tilos]

I've got a Sub2000 gen2 in 40S&W that I'm gonna use for USPSA pistol caliber carbine. Thus, maybe you're right that a slower powder would be better since I'm pushing the bullet 16". I just want a round that will cycle the action and have the lowest possible recoil.

Maybe I'd save the TG for 9mm loads and 40 major loads. I'll look into that, thanks, @PiratePast40 .

OH...a CARBINE
Make sure the bullet has left the barrel before squeezing off another one
I was going to post about buying a 9mm Storm Lake barrel for my 40 to load it down, until I read you are talking about a carbine.
Good luck on your quest,

 

[CHLChris]

Believe me, the sub2k trigger will NOT allow fast enough splits that endanger such a thing. But I do agree that my goal probably shouldn't be 125 PF, but good functioning and accuracy.

This is gonna be fun!

 

[Tilos]

Believe me, the sub2k trigger will NOT allow fast enough splits that endanger such a thing. But I do agree that my goal probably shouldn't be 125 PF, but good functioning and accuracy.

This is gonna be fun!

I meant loaded down so far that the bullet never gets out of the barrel, and remains lodged in it...it can happen, don't ask how I know

 

[CHLChris]

Sounds like a lack of any powder rather than just too little powder. But also some powders are sensitive, apparently, to too small a volume in the case actually causing a kaboom. Titegroup, from what I've read, is not as susceptible to that as others.

 

[Tilos]

Sounds like a lack of any powder rather than just too little powder. But also some powders are sensitive, apparently, to too small a volume in the case actually causing a kaboom. Titegroup, from what I've read, is not as susceptible to that as others.

It's more of what will/can and has happened with light loads...even with powder.

Can you post a link to where you read about Titegroup in a 40 cal. carbine?
I'm curious to read about it.

Just search for "mouse fart" load info, a popular subject on many reloading sites, and you'll find a lot of the type of load data you are looking for.
For me, I could never understand it...just buy a 22 and leave the brass on the ground.