Shoting at Safeway, CCW intervenes. Would you?

[livewire98801]

<broken link removed>

I was just at this store the other day with my SO. It's really rough, and we were wondering if a gang shooting might break out at any time when we were there. What's notable about this is the fact that it's in the early evening/late afternoon.

My response to the very question from my mother:

Mom: Yikes! That could have been you saving the guy's life!
Me: meh... I dunno about that
Me: sounds like a gang thing to me, I would have probably just GTFO or found cover and maybe snapped a cellphone picture of the shooter unless I thought I was in direct danger myself
Me: but the second I thought [girlfriend] or I were in danger, I would have wabbit hunted that SOB

So, what do you think. Would you have intervened in this case?

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[bikejunkie]

I'd like to believe I would intervene. I mean I've never run from danger in my life and it's easy to say while sitting here at a keyboard I would, but this kind of a deal is exactly why I always have a pistol on my person

 

[livewire98801]

I'd like to believe I would intervene. I mean I've never run from danger in my life and it's easy to say while sitting here at a keyboard I would, but this kind of a deal is exactly why I always have a pistol on my person

I feel like I would only intervene in a 'preying on the innocent' situation... but if you read between the lines in the article, it sounds like both parties showed up looking for a fight.

 

[lamrith]

I noticed that comment about them knowing each other too.

What ever happened to an old fashioned a55 kicking. Nobody can settle things like a man anymore..

 

[wm36]

Not likely. If you encounter a stranger-stranger situation like that you have no idea what is going on. Is it a UC LEO taking down a BG? Is it another legally armed citizen defending himself? Is it two gang-bangers? I don't know of a good way to figure that out on the fly. I would like to think I would: look out for #1, take cover, call 911, be a good witness.

 

[bikejunkie]

I'd probably have tried to hold the guy that did the shooting there until the police arrived, though that's tricky- I don't think I'd want to be holding a weapon when the cops show- I don't trust them not to get me confused with the shooter and shoot me for holding a pistol on someone...

 

[billstaf]

Unless there is a threat directed at me or people with me, I would not get involved. I carry for the personal protection of me and mine. The cops are there to protect everybody else. It sounds cold to say it that way, but I can't afford to spend a fortune and years of my life defending my actions for shooting someone who wasn't directly threatening me. I would most likely pull my weapon and direct it towards the threat while I back away and find some cover. When the cops arrive, the gun should already be holstered.

When and IF some kind of Good Samaritan laws are ever enacted that offer some legal protection for people who intervene in a lethal force incident, I may change my mind, but not until then.

 

[lamrith]

I tend to think I would have stepped in as well. Specially if the "unarmed" guy is on the ground yelling for help. Get the shooter to stop shooting, step back and try to de-escalate the situation. Keep both parties there, but how do you keep the armed person there?

Too bad the Person that Interviened did not get the shooters full name or better yet CPL# if he was looking at it. Course we have to remember that he may have and the police are keeping that to themselves in hopes he comes out of hiding...

Have to wonder reading it again if the cpl holder came armed hoping he could shoot and then use self defense justification?

Here comes another question, how to handle the shooter, do you ask them to disarm themselves, holster it etc? Really dangerous situation for all. Last thing I would want is to touch his weapon, and I have no right to disarm them, but..? There is also the issue of giving aid to the person shot..

 

[wm36]

Again, if you weren't there at the beginning of things, how do you know what is going on? Just because the guy on the ground is yelling for help, are you sure he is the victim? Sure he lost the fight, but how do you know he didn't pull a knife, causing the shooter to defend himself? Turn the tables: a guy pulls a knife or a gun on you, you draw and fire. The guy goes down and starts screaming for help (he's a scumbag, right? ) A bystander who thinks he knows what is going on wants you to disarm yourself. You think that's a good idea? A minute ago the guy was such a threat that you drew and fired. Now everything is okay? Oh, and you want to give aid to the guy on the ground without knowing the situation? Even the pros don't go in and start treatment until the scene is secured.

Not saying that it's never the right thing to do to step in and defend someone else. Just saying you have to be really careful and know the situation. Like billstaf said, if your're going to be spending your time and money defending yourself in court over something, make sure it really is worthwhile.

 

[livewire98801]

Again, if you weren't there at the beginning of things, how do you know what is going on? Just because the guy on the ground is yelling for help, are you sure he is the victim? Sure he lost the fight, but how do you know he didn't pull a knife, causing the shooter to defend himself? Turn the tables: a guy pulls a knife or a gun on you, you draw and fire. The guy goes down and starts screaming for help (he's a scumbag, right? ) A bystander who thinks he knows what is going on wants you to disarm yourself. You think that's a good idea? A minute ago the guy was such a threat that you drew and fired. Now everything is okay? Oh, and you want to give aid to the guy on the ground without knowing the situation? Even the pros don't go in and start treatment until the scene is secured.

Not saying that it's never the right thing to do to step in and defend someone else. Just saying you have to be really careful and know the situation. Like billstaf said, if your're going to be spending your time and money defending yourself in court over something, make sure it really is worthwhile.

I was thinking the same thing when I read it in the paper this morning. As I said earlier to someone... I carry two phones, both of which have great cameras on them. I probably would have used one to call 911 and the other to take pictures of the shooter. Unless that muzzle drifts my direction, I don't need to get involved.

 

[lamrith]

Again, if you weren't there at the beginning of things, how do you know what is going on? Just because the guy on the ground is yelling for help, are you sure he is the victim? Sure he lost the fight, but how do you know he didn't pull a knife, causing the shooter to defend himself? Turn the tables: a guy pulls a knife or a gun on you, you draw and fire. The guy goes down and starts screaming for help (he's a scumbag, right? ) A bystander who thinks he knows what is going on wants you to disarm yourself. You think that's a good idea? A minute ago the guy was such a threat that you drew and fired. Now everything is okay? Oh, and you want to give aid to the guy on the ground without knowing the situation? Even the pros don't go in and start treatment until the scene is secured.

Not saying that it's never the right thing to do to step in and defend someone else. Just saying you have to be really careful and know the situation. Like billstaf said, if your're going to be spending your time and money defending yourself in court over something, make sure it really is worthwhile.

That is exactly why I posed my question at the end of my post, as a counter to wanting to stop and intervene. I was trying to be devil's advocate for both points of view, guess I did not achieve that like I wished.. There are SOOOO many variables at play.

Even if the guy on the ground was the aggressor and lost, stepping in and stopping the shooter from taking another shot could very well save the shooter's bacon as well. In the heat of the moment and shock, he could fire again while the guy is down, then all the police and DA will hear from witnesses is he fired on a person on the ground Self defense or not he will be in even hotter water.

 

[mjbskwim]

Not my fight.Like stated before,draw down on an UC leo and get yourself shot by his partner coming around the corner?
Maybe he stopped the killing of a guy that needed it.They are out there ya know

Now if he is just randomly shooting people and acting bazaar,maybe then. But you walk up on a shooting......
this guy is lucky the gunman didn't just start shooting him.

He looked away from a gunman,unknown to himself? Looked away from some guy the was shooting someone in a crowded safeway in broad daylight?

He should have drove off.He shouldn't intervene any more if he ain't gunna watch the guy who would kill him.
That was his lucky day

 

[Blitzkrieg]

No way.. my primary duty is to defend my wife and she would be shopping with me. My secondary duty is to return home so I can continue task #1. I would drive on, immediately

 

[livewire98801]

Here's a great example of why we say we won't intervene:

<broken link removed>

Funny that everyone around town assumed that the shooter was a bad guy and the "good Samaritan" was a hero. Now it looks like there might be a legitimate self-defense claim, and our plucky hero interfered in a situation that might have been resolved without him clearing leather. Of course, we still don't know everything...

 

[mjbskwim]

See? He intervened and Lepe wasn't able to finish the job. This dirtbag will be out doing the same stuff after he leaves the hospital.

 

[livewire98801]

See? He intervened and Lepe wasn't able to finish the job. This dirtbag will be out doing the same stuff after he leaves the hospital.

Welllllllllllllllll, I would say the job was done, assuming his claim to self-defense was valid. Once the threat is subdued, taking the "coup de gras" is no longer 'self defense' and becomes 'murder two'

 

[bikejunkie]

I still think this doesn't pass the stink test. #1- why would you put your daughter and "partner" in harm's way by bringing them with you? #2- you just shot a guy, you know the cops are gonna be on the way, why do you run? Cop or no- someone who is legit doesn't shoot someone else and then haul *** when the witness isn't looking

 

[lamrith]

I never assumed the shooter was a bad guy, it did sound odd that he fled the scene. Like we all know, people that have gone thru the effort and passed the background check for a cpl are rarely the "bad guy".

That said we can all make mistakes, that bystander stepping in may have saved Mr Lepe's butt not just the dirtbag he shot. In the heat of the moment and fearing for his family as he claims, Mr Lepe could have taken one more shot on the down man. Regardless of the facts of the situation that is all many witness would have relayed to the authorities, he shot a man on the ground. The Prosecutor would have a field day with that, justified or not. Not only the person that dies in a shooting "loses thier life", as we all know the shooter can lose everything they know with court costs, jail etc, plus the cost to his family for losing his job, court, jail all for a heat of the moment bad decision.

If only Mr Lepe's 1st two shots had been better, then it would not matter...

 

[livewire98801]

I still think this doesn't pass the stink test. #1- why would you put your daughter and "partner" in harm's way by bringing them with you? #2- you just shot a guy, you know the cops are gonna be on the way, why do you run? Cop or no- someone who is legit doesn't shoot someone else and then haul *** when the witness isn't looking

I was pondering that when I saw the follow up article in the paper. It could be that the shooter couldn't figure out if our plucky hero was an accomplice or not. Having just shot someone in a defensive shoot, then having a muzzle in your face might convince me to hightail it out of there as well if the "new guy" looked away for long enough for me to do so.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I never assumed the shooter was a bad guy, it did sound odd that he fled the scene. Like we all know, people that have gone thru the effort and passed the background check for a cpl are rarely the "bad guy".

That said we can all make mistakes, that bystander stepping in may have saved Mr Lepe's butt not just the dirtbag he shot. In the heat of the moment and fearing for his family as he claims, Mr Lepe could have taken one more shot on the down man. Regardless of the facts of the situation that is all many witness would have relayed to the authorities, he shot a man on the ground. The Prosecutor would have a field day with that, justified or not. Not only the person that dies in a shooting "loses thier life", as we all know the shooter can lose everything they know with court costs, jail etc, plus the cost to his family for losing his job, court, jail all for a heat of the moment bad decision.

If only Mr Lepe's 1st two shots had been better, then it would not matter...

Maybe, maybe not. Common caliber pistols are poor man-killers