Shot for having fake gun.

[oa98pistol512]

When I was young I received a ticket for catching #1 over my limit ticket $32 back in the day forgot about it went to buy a gun at gun show state police hall me off laughing making jokes about the big bad fisherman...lol I wish I could get small breaks not big one like...

#1 I shot someone unarmed allready been im questonable shootings .........FREE PASS WITH PAID LEAVE!!!!

#2 MY son used my duty gun to terorize neighbors 3 count them 3 times befor he got and killed his siter....FRE PASS PAID LEAVE ....granted no daughter but cummon

#3 I am addicted to meth because I am aroud it and I am a cop ohhh and I accidently shot somone ....FREE PASS PAID LEAVE AND REHAB

Cant I get a break on a fishing ticket lol

 

[locobob]

Next time your faced with an armed individual, I hope you remember that...

Why are you so suspicions of other people with guns?
I walk around Portland often and certainly a good number of the people I come across have CHL's. Does that freak me out to think about, not at all. Would it be different if they were open carrying? Yeah a little, it would get my attention for a second but so long as they weren't charging me with it drawn I'd quickly go back to minding my business. I often spend time at Tri-County gun club shooting paper alongside people I don't know. Do I peer around suspiciously, watching for any of them to make a wrong move so that I can gun them down before they get me? Of course not. I just don't get the rational for this posture of battle you seem to feel is necessary. Like it or not we live in a pretty safe society and the vast majority of people are not looking to do you any harm.

 

[LCspeedsteel]

I think that if the cop has a gun drawn, pointed and ready to shoot, shooting before the guy touches his gun is too soon.

study reaction time tests... a cop out of the holster, at a low ready, will always lose to a threat with a gun in hand pointed at the ground (arm fully extended). take this into account when youre deciding to whip out your OC, or taser, or whatever poor decision that you would have supposedly made.

I already explained what I would have done, either approach and disarm with a covering officer or rouse the guy from a position that would allow cover and not force a shoot situation.
I don't consider this "choice" poor enough to warrant a death sentence. A man with a scoped rifle is wandering around in a wooded area - should the cops assume he is a sniper.... or is he a hunter? A man is openly carrying a pistol in a city environment - is he planning a robbery or is he just walking to his car from a nearby gun shop? A man is laying in a hotel hallway wearing strange attire with what appears to be a tucked weapon, it is a week before Halloween - is he a murderer lying in wait to kill cops.... or is he just a drunken Halloween partier? It's really easy to make wrong assumptions when you adopt a culture of suspicion and aggressive response.

so... chuck norris from the delta force series... you would have decided to tip toe over to an unidentified man, with an unknown history, with unknown intent, who has the means to kill you? and then try to take his gun without waking him? hope you wrestle well, because if he is stronger than you, he wins, and all of your training and equipment is out of the window because youre down to a strength contest. enjoy the afterlife.

Why are you so suspicions of other people with guns?
I walk around Portland often and certainly a good number of the people I come across have CHL's. Does that freak me out to think about, not at all. Would it be different if they were open carrying? Yeah a little, it would get my attention for a second but so long as they weren't charging me with it drawn I'd quickly go back to minding my business. I often spend time at Tri-County gun club shooting paper alongside people I don't know. Do I peer around suspiciously, watching for any of them to make a wrong move so that I can gun them down before they get me? Of course not. I just don't get the rational for this posture of battle you seem to feel is necessary. Like it or not we live in a pretty safe society and the vast majority of people are not looking to do you any harm.

i dont think anyone is suspicious of other people with guns. i think they may have been suspicious of a guy doing out of the ordinary things with a gun. when you have your gun on you, do you act normal? or do you find odd public places to nap?

So its better that civilians are killed instead of cops?

you make it sound as if our police just go around looking for somebody to shoot at. at the point in time that the guy in scrubs, with a gun, sleeping on STAIRS IN A HOTEL was shot.... they werent JUST dealing with "a civillian". sure, he wasnt an al-queda member. but they didnt know who he was, what he was doing, and how he was going to act when he woke up. what they did see was HIM REACHING FOR A GUN WHEN ANNOUNCING THAT THEY ARE THE POLICE. have you had police contact? upon noticing that police are attempting to contact you, do you have any desire to place your hand on, or even near your gun? no. because you have an expectation to get shot.

lets turn your dumb question around:
would you rather have a good cop get killed over a civilian who has put himself in an unfortunate situation due to poor choices?

i know its fun to pretend that the police are all out to get us, if youre not part of "occupy portland" or a career or wanted criminal, then its time to get that idea out of your head

 

[G1GRANDEUR]

Just saying, if bad guy or random person is pointing a gun at me, I'd rather shoot first then asking if the gun is real or not.

No matter who you dealing with, you NEVER know how it's going to be turn out.

 

[MountainBear]

Why are you so suspicions of other people with guns?
I walk around Portland often and certainly a good number of the people I come across have CHL's. Does that freak me out to think about, not at all. Would it be different if they were open carrying? Yeah a little, it would get my attention for a second but so long as they weren't charging me with it drawn I'd quickly go back to minding my business. I often spend time at Tri-County gun club shooting paper alongside people I don't know. Do I peer around suspiciously, watching for any of them to make a wrong move so that I can gun them down before they get me? Of course not. I just don't get the rational for this posture of battle you seem to feel is necessary. Like it or not we live in a pretty safe society and the vast majority of people are not looking to do you any harm.

First, most other people with guns do make me nervous. There are very few individuals that don't and they're either family or close friends I have spent enough time that they are family. If I don't know you, I don't know what's going through your mind, I don't know if you're competent with the firearm you are carrying. That being said, I still support the right of the people not only to keep arms, but to bear them as well. Unlike "progressives," I do not allow my insecurities to cause me to infringe on other people's rights. I do not believe other people are out to do harm, however, I have seen enough people that do wish to harm their fellow man that someone carrying a gun and acting strangely, I am suspicious. And I'm sorry, but an individual passed out in a public place with a gun in his wasteband is acting oddly. I do not walk around with a "posture of battle" (?). I just don't trust strangers.

 

[JGRuby]

When will the police learn that the simple fact that someone that has a gun on them does not necessarily make that person a bad guy. I do not think anyone will know what really happened except for the police that were there and they surely wont say anything that will negatively effect them even if they were in the wrong. The problem as I see it is that the cops are scared of the work they do and at the earliest possible ( imaginary or not ) sign of threat immediately go to the excesive use of force. If you really want to get rid of someone today call the police say that you have been threatened by someone and that someone was brandishing a pistol. Kind of like the modern version of a witch hunt. Odds are that person will never make it trial.

James Ruby

 

[locobob]

study reaction time tests... a cop out of the holster, at a low ready, will always lose to a threat with a gun in hand pointed at the ground (arm fully extended). take this into account when youre deciding to whip out your OC, or taser, or whatever poor decision that you would have supposedly made.


so... chuck norris from the delta force series... you would have decided to tip toe over to an unidentified man, with an unknown history, with unknown intent, who has the means to kill you? and then try to take his gun without waking him? hope you wrestle well, because if he is stronger than you, he wins, and all of your training and equipment is out of the window because youre down to a strength contest. enjoy the afterlife.

i dont think anyone is suspicious of other people with guns. i think they may have been suspicious of a guy doing out of the ordinary things with a gun. when you have your gun on you, do you act normal? or do you find odd public places to nap?



you make it sound as if our police just go around looking for somebody to shoot at. at the point in time that the guy in scrubs, with a gun, sleeping on STAIRS IN A HOTEL was shot.... they werent JUST dealing with "a civillian". sure, he wasnt an al-queda member. but they didnt know who he was, what he was doing, and how he was going to act when he woke up. what they did see was HIM REACHING FOR A GUN WHEN ANNOUNCING THAT THEY ARE THE POLICE. have you had police contact? upon noticing that police are attempting to contact you, do you have any desire to place your hand on, or even near your gun? no. because you have an expectation to get shot.

lets turn your dumb question around:
would you rather have a good cop get killed over a civilian who has put himself in an unfortunate situation due to poor choices?

i know its fun to pretend that the police are all out to get us, if youre not part of "occupy portland" or a career or wanted criminal, then its time to get that idea out of your head

You know you are right about the reaction times... so I'm thinking that waking the guy just further reduces reaction time and is an unnecessary risk to officer safety... probably should just shoot first then check it out.... I mean he is highly suspicious and all right?.... No normal person would be laying passed out in a hotel stairwell wearing strange garb around Halloween time.... and he has what looks like a gun.... he's not a cop so why would he have a gun.... citizens don't carry guns... except maybe for hunting.... unless of course they are up to no good.... Case closed... fire at will.

I also find it amusing that you expect a passed out drunk guy to act in a rational and responsible manner when startled back to consciousness by a bunch of people yelling at him.... have you ever been drunk?

And lastly, it would be great if nobody had to die, and had the cops been a little less aggressive in this case everyone would have gone home just fine. But if faced with an either/or choice then yes I would rather a cop die than an innocent civilian. Their job is to serve and protect, says so on the side of their cars. Does this mean to serve and protect themselves? I don't think so. It is their job to get in harms way, that is what they signed up for, to serve and protect the (sometimes stupid and irresponsible) public. When there is a burden of risk it should fall on the officer not the public. If I were a cop this is the attitude I would take.

 

[chevytatt]

Do YOU live in the real world? I've been in some unhappy dealings with police officers as well, but I've also been in some that were completely professional, and borderline friendly. We all know that there are some officers that more than likely take advantage of their position of power. However, I seriously doubt that to be the standard in situations. I know a few officers personally, and I realize that I may be biased on their behalf, but they're great people. If you had to spend most of your time on the defensive side of life, and yet be sure that you're butts covered from every possible angle to make sure that you're not involved in a "scandel" you might come off to some people as gruff, rude, and over bearing as well.

 

[lonegunman]

I happen to have been bushwacked my some meth smoking policeman with a fantasy of killing an unarmed civilian. He saw me getting the mail from MY OWN mailbox in front of my place of business during the business day. He slammed on the brakes, powerslid all over the road and leapt from the car with gun drawn and quaking,,,,,,,,,,,excited to the point of an uncontrollable erection at the chance to murder me and get away with it.

Why? Because, "he saw my portable radio and thought I needed help." His words,,,,,,,,,not mine. It took him about twenty minutes to crash off the meth/adrenaline rush and calm down. Once his buddies got him calm, he simply apologized and drove off to lurk outside a public restroom someplace.

I live in a town where various members of various law enforcement agencies have beaten to death or shot people in their own yards or why trying to buy soda from a quickie mart. They have blasted guys to death in their own kitchens for holding a knife while making a sandwich.

I consider my self a strong supporter of law enforcement, but not a supporter of the "above the law" behavior of some of its members. I know first hand there are cops who wake up everyday with the a desire that borders on sexual lust to kill or injure people. They will do anything they can to provoke an event where they can finally kill or injure someone so that they too can have a story to brag about during drunken parties.

 

[locobob]

Do YOU live in the real world? I've been in some unhappy dealings with police officers as well, but I've also been in some that were completely professional, and borderline friendly. We all know that there are some officers that more than likely take advantage of their position of power. However, I seriously doubt that to be the standard in situations. I know a few officers personally, and I realize that I may be biased on their behalf, but they're great people. If you had to spend most of your time on the defensive side of life, and yet be sure that you're butts covered from every possible angle to make sure that you're not involved in a "scandel" you might come off to some people as gruff, rude, and over bearing as well.

Not sure if you are directing this at me but.....
#1 I'm certainly not here to attack law enforcement. I have had a good deal of interaction with law enforcement: personal, professional and training. Many of the officers I've met were great people with great attitudes..... unfortunately quite a few others were not so great and were motivated by an obvious authoritarian streak.
#2 Yep its a tough job, but lots of jobs are tough, if you can't handle it, find another line of work. Since I've met some great cops with great attitudes I just don't buy the excuse that becoming a tyrant is an inevitable side effect of being a police officer.
#3 I'm not expecting cops to be perfect. I just expect them to hold the basic assumption that civilians are not the enemy until proven otherwise. That aggressive-violent response is a tool to be reserved for extreme circumstance, not employed as a hedge against every uncertainty.

 

[JGRuby]

The police are bringing this on themselves in my opinion - they do nothing to get rid of the bad cops and hence become part of the problem. If you look at the police related shootings here in Portland it is hard to take thier side on this. Everything from shooting someone in the back to using lethal rounds in a non lethal rifle. The worst they get if they kill someone is fired from thier currrent position. If you say anything negative, we the public get threatend with the blue flue. If the police do not like the public opinion then they need work to change that opinion / view of themselves as a whole. There are good cops and bad cops but there is no way of knowing which is which. Feeling like taking your chances that the next LEO that pulls you over did not have a bad night or has a over dose of adrenaline that day. I cannot afford to take that chance. When the police learn that they work for the society as whole and that means treating the people that pay thier wages with respect until disrespect has been shown to them. I am certain that being a LEO is not easy but they as a culture are going overboard - they are acting like para military units and its getting worse.

James Ruby

James Ruby

 

[LCspeedsteel]

When will the police learn that the simple fact that someone that has a gun on them does not necessarily make that person a bad guy. I do not think anyone will know what really happened except for the police that were there and they surely wont say anything that will negatively effect them even if they were in the wrong. The problem as I see it is that the cops are scared of the work they do and at the earliest possible ( imaginary or not ) sign of threat immediately go to the excesive use of force. If you really want to get rid of someone today call the police say that you have been threatened by someone and that someone was brandishing a pistol. Kind of like the modern version of a witch hunt. Odds are that person will never make it trial.

James Ruby

when they're not reaching for it

 

[JGRuby]

when they're not reaching for it

You only have the word of the police officers and they will only let you know what is in thier favor - I do not beleive he was even reaching for his gun - now prove me wrong.


I guess it doesnt make any difference because 1) he is dead and 2) the inidividuals who murdered him have told thier story - reality has nothing to do with it.


James Ruby

 

[LCspeedsteel]

You know you are right about the reaction times... so I'm thinking that waking the guy just further reduces reaction time and is an unnecessary risk to officer safety... probably should just shoot first then check it out.... I mean he is highly suspicious and all right?.... No normal person would be laying passed out in a hotel stairwell wearing strange garb around Halloween time.... and he has what looks like a gun.... he's not a cop so why would he have a gun.... citizens don't carry guns... except maybe for hunting.... unless of course they are up to no good.... Case closed... fire at will.

I also find it amusing that you expect a passed out drunk guy to act in a rational and responsible manner when startled back to consciousness by a bunch of people yelling at him.... have you ever been drunk?

And lastly, it would be great if nobody had to die, and had the cops been a little less aggressive in this case everyone would have gone home just fine. But if faced with an either/or choice then yes I would rather a cop die than an innocent civilian. Their job is to serve and protect, says so on the side of their cars. Does this mean to serve and protect themselves? I don't think so. It is their job to get in harms way, that is what they signed up for, to serve and protect the (sometimes stupid and irresponsible) public. When there is a burden of risk it should fall on the officer not the public. If I were a cop this is the attitude I would take.

how many tax dollars an hour should we spend having a group of armed officers wait in the hotel stairwell for this guy to wake up?

if you're going to carry a gun, a toy gun, or what may be mistaken for a gun.... maybe you should stay sober? even if you're not carrying any gun looking items... should you pass out in a stairwell? under any circumstances? whether or not it's a holiday?

the guy didn't choose to get shot.... he did put himself in a pretty poor set of circumstances with his lack of decision making skills.

now, dont misconstrue my statements as saying that being drunk in a place open to the public constitutes capital punishment.... my point is, and has been this whole time:

the subject that was shot by police put himself in a bad situation with his decisions... whether conscientious or not, they were bad choices. now you have a hotel clerk, who has a right to request emergency services, calling 911 thinking that this guy could wake up and do ___________ with this 'gun'. how should she know it was a toy? is it her responsibility to recognize these things? or is it the costume donned decision maker's job to ensure people dont have to notice these things... or stay awake, so he can explain that he is just an adult in a costume, overly consumed by the spirit of Halloween?

and lastly, the information that the police did or did not have available to them AT THE TIME OF THE EVENT:

suspicious person
suspicious circumstance
presence of weapons
an overt action by our costumed subject to reach towards his gun. (again, he could be reaching for ___________(fill in the blank with whatever you think makes you feel better) BUT should police assume the intentions of this man are good ones? at the possibility of costing them their lives?

there are reasons that you aren't doing the job that they are. like them or not, it takes a certain breed of individual to do what they do.... in Lt Col. Grossman's analogies:

there are 3 types of people:
sheep (general population, typically good folks)
wolves (jerks, criminals, scammers, etc.)
and sheepdogs (our LE, MIL, and crusaders for the righteous.)

if you have the inclination.... try reading some of his literature.... you may re-evaluate your opinions of the public servants that you so love to crap on

 

[LCspeedsteel]

when they're not reaching for it

You only have the word of the police officers and they will only let you know what is in thier favor - I do not beleive he was even reaching for his gun - now prove me wrong.


I guess it doesnt make any difference because 1) he is dead and 2) the inidividuals who murdered him have told thier story - reality has nothing to do with it.


James Ruby

1. the burden of proof is on the state
2. your opinions are fine, if you choose to have them, go ahead
3. doesn't anyone appreciate darwinism anymore?

it is tale as old as time my friend. the police give you a ticket once, or don't fix your problem with your neighbor right away (not having legal grounds to do so) and you condemn them and any of their actions forever.

you vote for your sheriff, you elect your city officials.... they appoint LEO's. who is to blame?

some genius earlier in the thread spoke about getting pulled over for doing 78 on I5 where he claims the speed limit was 75.... this leads me to believe that there just might be some ignorant (it only means uninformed so don't get upset) opinions on here. read up and educate yourself on some things before you pull words from your hindquarters and scatter them all over the internet. you don't need to impress anyone with your argument or posts.... just satisfy your own beliefs if anything. i try to make sure my statements have some foundation prior to posting them.

 

[LCspeedsteel]

Halloween partier shot by San Jose cops had gold-colored toy gun in costume - San Jose Mercury News

i guess he may just be able to share his story after all.

additionally.... maybe the police did exhaust efforts to end this peacefully... seems like it took quite a bit to wake him. (staff attempted, according to this report)

so, it wasn't a drive-by shooting committed by police, as some of you would like to believe

 

[Buddhalux]

So because I support police, or at least refuse to condemn them based on a media report, I am living in a fantasy world and I am a Nazi???

Just for your sanity, I am neither. I'm sorry that you have had bad interactions with police. But your bad interactions do not mean that every media report where the police are painted in an unflattering light are true.

When an officer is convicted in a court of law, not the court of public opinion, of wrongdoing, they should be punished like every other person in the US. But unlike you, I refuse to condemn the actions of police officers based on what the media reports.

Ya that always works, Berk comes to mind.

 

[Buddhalux]

Another thing that irks me is that they said he was reaching for his "gun". How many of you wake up when loud noises are around you and don't move either hand? I guess hitting him with a Taser then holding off on the trigger until he made a threatening move must be out of the question.

 

[Riot]

A lot of you guys are assuming the cops are trigger happy, murderers...kinda like the cops assumed a guy with a gun in his hip was reaching for a gun in his hip.

Hypocrites? I think so...we will never know what really went down because we weren't there. But just assuming that police just "can't wait to shoot someone" is a stretch to say the least.

Ya they must of been afraid the gun would go off without anybody touching it. He was passed out go up and take it out of his waistband. Nope they have to shot him. Big tuff cops. Respect my authorita.

This is why police can't be judged by anyone accept by other officers to determine if their actions were reasonable. You see a man passed out, I see a man that could be faking and waiting for an opportunity to wrestle with an officer and disarm them. You see a man in a costume, I see a man with a possible gun in his hip almost a week before Halloween (10/25/11).

What I find humorous is that many of you have tried to put yourself in the "victim's" shoes...stating that you would do the same.

If I'm passed out on a stairway and someone wakes me up, the first thing I do is reach down and make sure I have my pants on.

A lot of these responses makes me believe that many of you have actually been on the receiving side of the law, hence why many of you are probably bias against LEOs in the first place- but that's just a speculation at this point.

Hope you all read that correctly...it is a SPECULATION. A theory based on your own observations of the facts. Are there facts present in the case? Yes. What are they?

*Man unconscious in a public place.
*Man has what appears to be a deadly weapon on his person.
*Police wake man, he reaches in the direction of the weapon and is shot by police.

What am I missing here? Because the gun is fake they should have asked him first if it was real? I hope you guys are never on my jury if I ever have to shoot someone, that's for sure. Lastly, a lot of you say to take everything that the mainstream media says with a grain of salt...but I guess that only applies if it fits into the cop bashing agenda?

*sigh*

I have a feeling that I'm going to surpass 20 members of this forum on my ignore list before this thread gets locked.

 

[Buddhalux]

Well if it's an unconcious person then why wasn't a medical call out involved prior to shots fired? Unconcious individuals warrent a medical response due to the potential life threating conditions that may be present.