Semi-Auto vs Revolver when hiking with dogs in Wolf/Cougar country...

[tkdguy]

Penny O, seems to be one of the more Left Racist out there, comments she has made in the past make it clear.
She is another of these David Hog types, says everything wrong, and works to convince everyone she is right.

On Topic.
Depends on the shooters experience, easy enough to empty six rounds in a panic and not hit a damn thing at all.
I think 200gr 357 revolver just because the reliability factor, if it was wolves a semi may work better, bring both but Id stay around 4" those long barrels tend to get hung up when in a hurry.

200 grain bullets? 158 grain soft point will not work efficiently? Or, you are thinking of encounters with bear? Thanks.

 

[Argonaut]

My 629 (44mag) always works and is handy with shot shells for smaller critters, but there is nothing wrong with a good adjustable sight 357 Mag either. I am in the camp if you are expecting trouble, take a rifle or shotgun. Handguns are a poor Hollywood substitute.......like a western gunfight with a carbine against a 1873. Good luck.

 

[156256Hunter]

For me it depends on how long or how many days you'll be hiking. By day 3 or 4 of hiking or hunting several hours per day over various terrain and under all weather, those stainless steel revolvers start to get a little heavy no matter how good the holster is. Of course they're more accurate and more powerful than the avg semi auto, but after a while I lose patience with the weight. Partly because I'm packing other stuff and would rather have more water.

So I go with a polymer framed semi auto. If hunting and you get an animal down before dark but you're going to be out there a while, a polymer pistol/tac light would be useful. Not as your main light source but in case Mr cougar or whatever tries to be your friend.

 

[OldBroad44]

Id stay around 4" those long barrels tend to get hung up when in a hurry.

I think it depends on what barrel length you are used to. I like snubbies for carrying in a fanny pack and 6 inch barrels for carrying in a slide style holster on belt. Don't have much use for 4 inch. When drawing from a belt, a gun with a 6 inch barrel is what my hand, brain, and reflexes are expecting.

 

[tkdguy]

For me it depends on how long or how many days you'll be hiking. By day 3 or 4 of hiking or hunting several hours per day over various terrain and under all weather, those stainless steel revolvers start to get a little heavy no matter how good the holster is. Of course they're more accurate and more powerful than the avg semi auto, but after a while I lose patience with the weight. Partly because I'm packing other stuff and would rather have more water.

So I go with a polymer framed semi auto. If hunting and you get an animal down before dark but you're going to be out there a while, a polymer pistol/tac light would be useful. Not as your main light source but in case Mr cougar or whatever tries to be your friend.

What are you recommending? The only gun mentioned so far I think was the Glock 11 mm but the full weight of the Glock would be the same as a stainless 357/44 in 6 inch or so. A short barreled polymer would loose accuracy. Thanks.

 

[156256Hunter]

I think accuracy is relative subject to the distances we're assuming would be at issue. I personally assume the range will be between 15 and 30 yards (depending on terrain).

At some point, the farther away you shoot something in self defense, other people may not consider it self defense.

I think a semi auto with a 3.5 to 4" barrel in .45, .40, 10mm or 357 sig (with proper loads) is fine for short range self defense. One guy on here is selling a glock 30 (a very accurate model) for $350 which is a steal. 10 rounds of .45 200 grain +p should be adequate. Just my 2 cents. I put emphasis on factors like weight for carry, plus "decent" power, plus concealability even in the woods, plus round capacity and ability to quickly reload if needed or able.

 

[OldBroad44]

Wolves are not going to hang around after the first blast of 357 or 44 mag goes off or am I wrong? If I have my two dogs with me that would be unlikely. I am shooting 357 158 gr soft point bullets.

In my Minnesota era, I did a fair amount of hiking and camping where the timber wolves howled every night, and boy is that eerie. But I never saw one.

The 158gr soft point .357 load would be fine for the canids, but not optimal for bears. I prefer to go with an optimal bear load. For bears, I want something heavy that penetrates as much as possible without expanding or fragmenting while also doing as much damage as possible (without expanding). (It should be able to punch right through a heavy shoulder and still go all the way through the animal.) In .357, I like a 180 grain round nose flat point hard cast. You want one with as large a meplat (flat part to the nose) as possible with sharp, not rounded edges. (The smaller the meplat and more rounded the edges, the more the bullet approches round nose, which gives good penetration but often with little damage.) I really like the HSM 180gr BEAR load. These only cost about a dollar each.

 

[No_Regerts]

Ive had to deal with large dogs on several occasions and 165gr or 180gr bullets at over 1000 fps from a 4.5 inch barreled G22 are plenty effective. Same with a G21 and 200gr +P. That load will do anything a 10mm will do.

 

[OldBroad44]

My 629 (44mag) always works and is handy with shot shells for smaller critters, but there is nothing wrong with a good adjustable sight 357 Mag either. I am in the camp if you are expecting trouble, take a rifle or shotgun. Handguns are a poor Hollywood substitute.......like a western gunfight with a carbine against a 1873. Good luck.

If I were expecting trouble in some particular woods situation, I wouldn't be there at all. It's recreation, not a situation where I have to go, even though it is dangerous. I carry a handgun because I'm NOT expecting danger.

 

[OldBroad44]

I think accuracy is relative subject to the distances we're assuming would be at issue. I personally assume the range will be between 15 and 30 yards (depending on terrain).

At some point, the farther away you shoot something in self defense, other people may not consider it self defense.

I think a semi auto with a 3.5 to 4" barrel in .45, .40, 10mm or 357 sig (with proper loads) is fine for short range self defense. One guy on here is selling a glock 30 (a very accurate model) for $350 which is a steal. 10 rounds of .45 200 grain +p should be adequate. Just my 2 cents. I put emphasis on factors like weight for carry, plus "decent" power, plus concealability even in the woods, plus round capacity and ability to quickly reload if needed or able.

We aren't talking about self defense that is going to be evaluated by the laws regarding using lethal force against humans. Were talking about what you might need to do to bail out your dogs. Under woods situation where the issue is whether your own dogs come out alive, and if you shot a few feral dogs to assure that, nobody is going to know or care. In my own evaluation of such possible situations, it seems to me that the longer shots may be needed. If you assume that the range is going to be no more than 30 yards, pretty much any adequate self defense gun in any adequate self defense caliber will do for the canines. A bit more would be needed for a black bear, say 10mm if you are determined to go semiauto. I've only had one incident in which I needed to aim a gun at a potentially dangerous wild critter--a bear--and it was only 22 feet away.

I too agree that I want to be able to carry my woods gun concealed. If I ever did run into danger in the woods, I think it would be much more likely to be from bad humans than animals. And cc gives a tactical advantage. Cc is easier for me to do with a large revolver, that complements my female shape, than a large semiauto, which doesn't. I don't feel undergunned with six rounds of .44.

 

[156256Hunter]

We aren't talking about self defense that is going to be evaluated by the laws regarding using lethal force against humans. Were talking about what you might need to do to bail out your dogs. Under woods situation where the issue is whether your own dogs come out alive, and if you shot a few feral dogs to assure that, nobody is going to know or care. In my own evaluation of such possible situations, it seems to me that the longer shots may be needed. If you assume that the range is going to be no more than 30 yards, pretty much any adequate self defense gun in any adequate self defense caliber will do for the canines. A bit more would be needed for a black bear, say 10mm if you are determined to go semiauto. I've only had one incident in which I needed to aim a gun at a potentially dangerous wild critter--a bear--and it was only 22 feet away.

I too agree that I want to be able to carry my woods gun concealed. If I ever did run into danger in the woods, I think it would be much more likely to be from bad humans than animals. And cc gives a tactical advantage. Cc is easier for me to do with a large revolver, that complements my female shape, than a large semiauto, which doesn't. I don't feel undergunned with six rounds of .44.

True and good points (esp CC-ing is a tactical advantage), but since the original poster was asking about cougars and wolves, if someone shoots a wolf my guess is they'd better be able to justify it to the Fish & Game officials (given how polarizing the wolf issue is).

 

[Joe13]

I'm with the rifle (30-06 & 30-30's are maybe 300-350) or shotgun (also in the $300 range) as a primary gun.

Pistols are not as powerful nor accurate at longer ranges. They are a backup and people gun for me.

I'd rather carry a 6lb rifle on my shoulder then a 3-4lb gun on my hip.

 

[Argonaut]

I'm with the rifle (30-06 & 30-30's are maybe 300-350) or shotgun (also in the $300 range) as a primary gun.

Pistols are not as powerful nor accurate at longer ranges. They are a backup and people gun for me.

I'd rather carry a 6lb rifle on my shoulder then a 3-4lb gun on my hip.

And it is 20X more effective than a handgun in both power and accuracy. I am building an XM177 type Short barrel rifle just for this type use.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Read my Cougar attack posts, RIFLE is what I carry and recommend, a pistol is only a back up for danger close, and a shot gun can be questionable against larger predators! A fast handling rifle is far more effective then the most powerful pistol out there! If forced to only have a pistol, a semi auto of at least .40 cal and up would be my choice with 10 MM giving the best performance overall, beyond that, a .44mag or .45 COLT stoked HOT would be my choice for a wheel gun!

 

[OldBroad44]

True and good points (esp CC-ing is a tactical advantage), but since the original poster was asking about cougars and wolves, if someone shoots a wolf my guess is they'd better be able to justify it to the Fish & Game officials (given how polarizing the wolf issue is).

Thanks for the reminder. I lost track of the fact that original post asked about cougars and wolves. And I inferred that bears were an issue because poster put bear bells on dogs. Why else put up with all that noise? But these are considered a
defense against wolves too. The thread expanded to include feral dogs and coyotes from wolves, a similar much more likely threat for most of us. However, you are right to bring up that killing a wolf has legal implications. I just looked it up, and you can shoot a wolf in Oregon only in defense of human life. And just to make sure, they explicitly say it is not legal to kill a wolf to save a dog. Furthermore, apparently the penalty is up to $6250 AND a year in jail. If the wolf was close to you you might claim self defense of your person. They investigate wolf killings forensically, though. If you did have to shoot a wolf to protect a dog and reported it, it sounds like it could be pretty costly. Unless we are livestock keepers, however I think most of us are pretty unlikely to see a wolf in Oregon, let alone get attacked by a pack.

With cougars and bears, the scenario I imagined that would be most likely to call for a distance shot, is dog trees cougar or bear in uncomfy small tree, then cougar or bear realizes that there is just one dog down there, one much smaller than him, and starts coming down. And maybe the tree is 50 to 100 yards away, necessitating a shot I could do with a fine big bore revolver but not with any semiauto I've ever shot. But really, the tree would be more likely to be even further away and not visible at all through the woods. And my dog was trained to "out" and return on command anyway, and did so the one time she went after a bear. So she wouldn't be treeing a bear so far away. Fact is, I love carrying a big bore revolver in the woods. I'll settle for any excuse to carry one. Or even none at all.

 

[OldBroad44]

I'm with the rifle (30-06 & 30-30's are maybe 300-350) or shotgun (also in the $300 range) as a primary gun.

Pistols are not as powerful nor accurate at longer ranges. They are a backup and people gun for me.

I'd rather carry a 6lb rifle on my shoulder then a 3-4lb gun on my hip.

I'd rather carry the big revolver on my hip than the rifle on my shoulder. But your shoulders are probably much broader than mine, and my hips are probably much broader than yours.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Given the recent sightings of Cougar in urban areas, be careful in how you deal with them, I'm not sure how the various cities and counties take to shooting inside the boundries!

 

[tkdguy]

I think I have this figured out. Hiking in the wilderness areas where the predators are wolves and cats I can carry either the Smith Wesson 27 8 3/8" barrel 357 with 180 grain or 200 grain bullets or 44 mag revolver in Ruger Super Blackhawk with a possible "backup" Smith Wesson 3" Model 60 in 5 shot 357 with 158 grain rounds with dogs and bells. In areas where there are bears and cats and or wolves I can carry a 5 shot Ruger 44 Semi-Auto Carbine "Deer Slayer" circa 1970's and a Smith Wesson Model 60 357 3" backup with 158 grain soft-point rounds with dogs and bells. How does that sound? Am I missing anything?

 

[Certaindeaf]

I think I have this figured out. Hiking in the wilderness areas where the predators are wolves and cats I can carry either the Smith Wesson 27 8 3/8" barrel 357 with 180 grain or 200 grain bullets or 44 mag revolver in Ruger Super Blackhawk with a possible "backup" Smith Wesson 3" Model 60 in 5 shot 357 with 158 grain rounds with dogs and bells. In areas where there are bears and cats and or wolves I can carry a 5 shot Ruger 44 Semi-Auto Carbine "Deer Slayer" circa 1970's and a Smith Wesson Model 60 357 3" backup with 158 grain soft-point rounds with dogs and bells. How does that sound? Am I missing anything?

Well it sounds like as before.. whatever you're better with and comfortable schlepping around.

 

[OldBroad44]

I think I have this figured out. Hiking in the wilderness areas where the predators are wolves and cats I can carry either the Smith Wesson 27 8 3/8" barrel 357 with 180 grain or 200 grain bullets or 44 mag revolver in Ruger Super Blackhawk with a possible "backup" Smith Wesson 3" Model 60 in 5 shot 357 with 158 grain rounds with dogs and bells. In areas where there are bears and cats and or wolves I can carry a 5 shot Ruger 44 Semi-Auto Carbine "Deer Slayer" circa 1970's and a Smith Wesson Model 60 357 3" backup with 158 grain soft-point rounds with dogs and bells. How does that sound? Am I missing anything?

Practically speaking, if there are cougars (with or without wolves) there are almost certainly also bears. So I don't think its practical to divide your trips up and make decisions on what to carry based on what you are expecting. I think your carry choices all need to cover cougars and bears (plus or minus wolves). And your bullet choices need to be good for everything, meaning they need to be bear loads. If you are carrying a rifle and surprise a mother bear with cub a few feet away, it could be on you before you can deploy your rifle. And then you would be unable to deploy rifle. In which case your backup .357 better be carrying bear loads. (So forget the hollow points and go with nonexpanding bear loads for either 357 or 44.)

Its not that the rifle is needed for bear and not for cats or wolves. Actually, the rifle is likely to be useless if a cougar or other predator jumps you and you are doing good to get even one hand free. But for all other scenarios, the rifle is superior. With your two dogs belled, if you did have to use a gun, it would be much more likely to be in order to protect or back up or rescue a dog rather than a surprise attack on you. This could be shots at a distance, at moving targets. The rifle would by far be the best weapon for that, whatever the predator.

But really, with two belled dogs off leash, the odds of your needing a gun aren't very likely. And the dogs themselves are backup for you and each other.

If it were me I would be comfortable with either the sw 8inch model 28 .357 or the Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 or the rifle, and wouldnt bother with a backup gun, either. Instead, I'd use the extra weight for ammo so I can actually practice a bit. I would choose whatever gun I was most comfortable carrying or most wanted to practice with. Bear loads are heavy. A box of 50 rounds of HSM .357mag 180gr RNFP Hardcast Bear loads weighs 2 lbs 9oz. (I take paper plates for targets and eye and ear protection. During practice, tie dogs some distance away to protect their hearing.)