Semi-Auto vs Revolver when hiking with dogs in Wolf/Cougar country...

[Certaindeaf]

Against black bear: 44 mag 240 grain soft point bullets? Such as Remington? Or, other off the shelf ammo? Thanks.

Yea, those'll do a black bear.

 

[DB is Here]

I am rethinking of switching to high capacity 9mm or 40 caliber semi-auto with 4-5 inch barrels. What do you think or have recommendations?

Always bring a slower friend...problem solved.

 

[dplev4]

I switched from a 4" .357 S&W Revolver (66 no dash) to a Glock 20 10mm while bowhunting where I do encounter bear and cougar or at least their recent sign, for three reasons.

I am more accurate with the Glock than I am the revolver.

I like higher load count in the in the semi versus the revolver.

The S&W revolver is just too pretty to keep taking in the woods.

 

[MrRob96]

Google the history of fatal wolf attacks. Most fatal wolf attacks in recorded history where a firearm / knife were present stated the remains of the person(s) were found surrounded by the wolves that they had killed before being overcome by the remaining ones. Imagine shooting 5 wolves dead and still getting eaten because the remaining ones didn't stop coming.

Scary freaking stuff.

Just did that Google search and reading. What I've learned is I need an M249 and this suit next time I run into a wolf pack.

 

[Argonaut]

Bullet design is critical. The M193 ammo would have been full metal jacket and shaped like a needle. Right? That bullet design penetrates well but goes through flesh with little resistance, essentially making a minimal slit and doing little damage--unless it hits so hard it causes damage through hydrostatic shock. My understanding is this design works in war because it results in more injuries and fewer deaths, and that is best because each injured soldier ties up two or more other soldiers to evacuate and care for him or her.

Bear loads in handgun calibers are usually designed to go all the way through the animal, even if heavy bone is hit, while presenting a bullet that has as large a flat nose as possible to smash as much tissue and do as much damage as possible--and to do so in a context where bullet speeds are low enough that hydrostatic shock doesn't contribute much to permanent wound channels.

I agree that feral dog packs, such as you can get in war zones, are way scarier than wolves. They can have been eating human flesh and consider people as just food. Food that can easily be tricked by a fake display of friendliness. Much smaller feral packs sometimes cause problems for livestock here. I think if we had any human-attacking packs of feral dogs in USA, we would eliminate them pretty quickly in ordinary times. However, large feral dog packs certainly might be an issue in some SHTF scenarios.

What you don't seem to realize is the 5.56 ball bullets immediately begin to tumble after hitting flesh creating huge wound channels. The heavier base of the bullet wants to turn and go forward like a weighted dart producing wound channels as large or larger than the length of the bullet many times becoming larger than a mushroomed hollow point. Ask and military medic type what the wounds look like from an M16 type weapon. I didn't used to believe it until I saw it in action.

 

[HB of CJ]

All of this was over 30 years ago. Basque sheep herders in Central California did not have the money or access for available SP ammo. They shot what the over seers provided. At first Ruger Mini 14 rifles. Then owners provided the AR15 SP1 rifles. No success.

The wild dog packs were a problem then. Some still had on dog collars. What they would do is first attack and kill the Australasian Sheep dogs. Then like coyotes or wolves they would actually pull the nearly born lambs right out of the mother. Entire flocks were being hit hard.

I got involved building custom AR15 rifles. As an experiment a 1x14 twist 20" pencil barrel was substituted in an AR15 rifle build. The feedback using cheap M193 ammo was amazing. Just that little bit of twist difference made a big difference in performance against dogs.

BEARS? If the threat was that bad I would not go hiking or camping there. Why set yourself up for a disaster. Simply avoid it. But ... If ya' gotta go then consider a Trench 12 12" bbl AK47 "firearm" with three twenty, (20) round drums with solid steel perpetrator slugs. Yikes!

Google Chrome Speelll Chzk Is a HOOT!

 

[Certaindeaf]

The same thing happens with 30-06 military ammo and the twist of the day. The heavier stuff would pencil on through but was more accurate at longer ranges whereas the 150gr ball would rip you a very large new one.

 

[OldBroad44]

Against black bear: 44 mag 240 grain soft point bullets? Such as Remington? Or, other off the shelf ammo? Thanks.

Jsp are better than hollow points and may be designed for hunting bear. But they still aren't as good as a heavy round point flat nose hardcast bullets with a large meplat for bear self defense. The soft points generally don't penetrate all the way through as reliably and don't do as much damage.

You usually don't get good bear loads buying off the shelf from a small selection. You either need a store with a wide selection or you order them on line. Ideally, by the way, a 44mag load for self defense against bears is NOT loaded as hot as possible. It's loaded in the range of about 700 to about 1000 ft lbs. The idea is you should be able to control it with one hand, and multiple shots may be needed. In my own experience, I can easily control a full weight 6 inch .44 with one hand with either hand if the power is in that 700 to 1000 ft. lb. range. And the practice is fun, too. But for a full load at 1100 or 1200 ft lbs, I really want to have two hands on the gun. And a light shooting glove too. (I don't mess with ultra light or snubby 44s.)

In .44mag for generaI woods carry for self defense against everything that might choose to be offended by my existence, including black bears, I Iike the HSM 305gr .44mag Bear wide flat nose hardcast. This has an advertised velocity of 1075 fps, which translates into 782 ft. lbs. One of my local gun stores, Philomath Gun Shop, stocks these most of the time. They also sell them on line for $25 for 20. www.guns4sale.net They seem to have some in stock now. This round is widely available from various on line retailers, however.

Basic strategy for defense against bears is shooting in the brain. That is the only thing that is guaranteed to stop an attack instantly. Supposedly black bears, unlike grizzlies, will break off an attack and run if injured. Don't think I'd want to count on that.

 

[OldBroad44]

I switched from a 4" .357 S&W Revolver (66 no dash) to a Glock 20 10mm while bowhunting where I do encounter bear and cougar or at least their recent sign, for three reasons.

I am more accurate with the Glock than I am the revolver.

I like higher load count in the in the semi versus the revolver.

The S&W revolver is just too pretty to keep taking in the woods.

The Glock is too ugly to go into the woods all alone with.

 

[Certaindeaf]

The Glock is too ugly to go into the woods all alone with.

Probably too brokeback to say "I'm going into the woods with Smith and Wesson!".

lolz

 

[solv3nt]

Just remember, whatever gun you choose for bears, make sure to file down the front sight.







It'll hurts less when the bear takes it from you and shoves it up your ###.

 

[Twindad]

Glock 20, 10mm good to go

 

[Certaindeaf]

Remember, back in the old days, men would go forth with nothing but a flint or percussion lock arm.. and a Bowie knife.
This little perspective might calm a few down with their worries.

 

[Argonaut]

Remember, back in the old days, men would go forth with nothing but a flint or percussion lock arm.. and a Bowie knife.
This little perspective might calm a few down with their worries.

It is silly city people that get all worked up over it. In general, they are best advised to stay within a city park.......oh, then they encounter druggies and perverts........so, I guess they can't win.

 

[MrMillspecer]

We have bear , cougar , bobcats, yotes in our area and I have walked the woods plenty with a 22lr or an air rifle. It's safer than the city parks. I consider myself lucky to see a bobcat or bear and have yet to see a cougar in 20+ years living outide the city limits bordering forestry land. I had a Ruger 44 mag Hunter model but would seldom carry it when hiking because of it's size. Usually took a 5" 1911 when i had any worries and ended up selling my large hunting pistol.

But as a kid back in Idaho my dad had a saying when you were well prepared. He would say " Your loaded for Bear " . And his 44 Blackhawk was always on his hip when hunting or picking berries or mushrooms.

 

[shibbershabber]

I don't ever expect to see bear where we go... carry either Glock 21 or AR pistol... I worry more about 2 legged problems since I'm usually in areas within a couple hours of the city.

I've seen people, uhh..., 'experiencing houselessness' on extended camping trips out there which trouble me more than a big cat.

In the Mt St Helens area I'll carry a hotrodded 45 Colt or if I'm not hauling too much hear I'll bring a rifle.

Maybe both if I've got my kids with me. They can carry the extra ammo

 

[HB of CJ]

Cougars. We managed to see only one in the wilds, only it wasn't. Girl friend and me were just walking down the paved road when we turned a corner. About 100 yards ahead there was a big row of rural delivery mail and newspaper boxes.

A big MALE, (yep) Cougar was standing up on his hind legs with his front paws on the wood frame of the orange plastic news paper delivery boxes. He was looking into and apparently sniffing at of the empty newspaper boxes. Curious?

I guess so. We both froze, (100 yards away) then Hannah tried to switch lenses in her expensive German 35 MM film camera. The big telephoto lens clicked into place. That was enough noise. The Cougar saw us and was gone.

We did get to watch that Cougar for about 30 seconds. Imprinted into my memory. Amazing such a big cat was that close to civilization. Haven't yet seen a Bear. Hope not too. Only black bears around here but they can get pretty big.

 

[Defense Minister]

Another recommendation here for the 10mm, specifically the Glock 20, or 29 if you want it to be readily concealable. Nearly half the weight of your .357 with over twice the capacity and better ballistics, so with the right load it's good for bears, too. Why are you still reading this instead of driving to the gun store???

The one time I ran into a cougar in the wild I was armed with a .45 ACP and I'm confident it would have done the job if that became necessary, but why not go prepared for any of the critters out there that are bigger/faster/have larger teeth than you?

 

[OldBroad44]

Another recommendation here for the 10mm, specifically the Glock 20, or 29 if you want it to be readily concealable. Nearly half the weight of your .357 with over twice the capacity and better ballistics, so with the right load it's good for bears, too. Why are you still reading this instead of driving to the gun store???

The one time I ran into a cougar in the wild I was armed with a .45 ACP and I'm confident it would have done the job if that became necessary, but why not go prepared for any of the critters out there that are bigger/faster/have larger teeth than you?

Better ballistics? The hottest 10mm loads seem to give you almost as much ft lbs as the hotter .357s. I'd bet the comparable bear loads are more effective in .357s since the semiauto loads must have smaller meplats and rounder edges to feed properly. But call them comparable in ballistics. Ive seen plenty of youtube videos comparing hot 10mm loads to mild .357 loads and concluding 10mm has better ballistics. Or comparing fmj 10mm with jhp .357 and saying 10mm penetrates better. I consider the 10mm comparable to the .357, definitely not better. And of course, the .44mag totally outclasses .357 or 10mm.

The glock 20 at 30oz unloaded is a little lighter than the 4inch k frame model 66 at 37oz. But many of us prefer a somewhat heavier gun when shooting .357 class calibers. And for a mere 42oz you can carry a 4inch 629.

The glock has the revolvers beat in firepower of course. If I actually expected to have to stand off large packs of canines who wanted to turn me into lunch, I'd certainly want something higher capacity than my revolvers.

 

[Defense Minister]

According to the Doubletap Ammo website, which loads ALL calibers to the max, their 200gr. hardcast lead bullet produces 640 ft. lbs of energy from a 4" .357 and their same bullet in 10mm produces 750 ft. lbs. of energy from a Glock 20. The 10mm also makes a bigger hole which is important with non-expanding bullets, and still has 643 ft. lbs. of energy at 50 yards! This registers as better ballistics in my gray matter...

It is possible that the .357 will penetrate better due to higher sectional density, but I'm pretty certain that both will penetrate adequately