Self defense on the 'other side of the pond'

[elsie]

I see this pop up on occasion. Couple arrested after shooting burglars with legally registered gun

Personally, I'm glad the pendulum is swinging the other way here in the U.S. For a while it seemed like there was pressure to be more like them for self defense. That now feels like it is being reversed.


elsie

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[mrblond]

I honestly don't understand how the lawmakers can sleep at night with these laws. I also can't understand how our anti-gun lawmakers can even think that disarming the American public will not end up just how it is over there in England and Oz, a free for all for the scum of humanity.

 

[RVTECH]

I honestly don't understand how the lawmakers can sleep at night with these laws

Meds

 

[mjbskwim]

I honestly don't understand how the lawmakers can sleep at night with these laws. I also can't understand how our anti-gun lawmakers can even think that disarming the American public will not end up just how it is over there in England and Oz, a free for all for the scum of humanity.

That's kinda funny right there, Blond.
Do you know where "flipping the bird" came from ?

The Brits would go thry the country side and cut off the fingers that were used for bows,so as to stop the citizens from being able to shoot at the British soldiers. Even young boys.They will grow to be bad men some day.
So the boys and men who had been bypassed would flip the middle finger to say... well you know

The British have never thought it a good idea that citizens have weapons of any kind.
Then that war came through there,in the 40's.Don't the disarmed citizens thing was the best idea.
Now you must take your beating from the intruders or be arrested for defending yourself
Smart lads!

 

[mjbskwim]

Meds

Washed down with a few pints?

 

[drew]

Washed down with a few pints?

Or gin.

 

[Grunwald]

I've read a story that a lady in England was admonished by the police for waving her kitchen knife at prowlers outside her kitchen window. She was told that the act was an illegal intimidation with an offensive weapon.

 

[mrblond]

I am waiting for some nice, law abiding person over there to get sued from some guy breaking his foot while kicking down their door.
I guess I simply can't get my head around things over there. I think you have lost one of our greatest freedoms when you can't defend yourself or your property

By the way, I wonder what the crime rate in Switzerland is.

 

[kd7vdb]

It already happened

BBC NEWS | UK | England | Burglar sues farmer

I am waiting for some nice, law abiding person over there to get sued from some guy breaking his foot while kicking down their door.
I guess I simply can't get my head around things over there. I think you have lost one of our greatest freedoms when you can't defend yourself or your property

By the way, I wonder what the crime rate in Switzerland is.

 

[Stomper]

No wonder the sun set on "the Empire where the sun never sets".

 

[Misterbill]

Having traveled to the UK several times since the 1970s, I can unequivocally say that this is a country which has lost it's collective mind.

the nanny-stae insanity which is the UK would not survive one second in most of the USA.

You have to go to NYC to find the insanity that's "normal" in the pesthole. After my visit in 2005, I will NEVER go back.

It's not even England anymore. It's just a nanny-state disaster.

 

[Botte Hork]

Being born and raised in continental Europe, I'm happy to not be there now.

 

[xd45acp]

Hey, atleast they get to have cool syderdo folding knives....that don't lock.

 

[Botte Hork]

Hey, atleast they get to have cool syderdo folding knives....that don't lock.

Is that in the UK? Most non-assisted-opening stuff is fine in Holland.

 

[AlphaCoyote]

I lived in Nottingham and London for a year. It's a strange system of violence in the UK. Both perps and defenders rely a LOT more on blade weapons and bludgeons (and flat out numbers of guys), so it's not like there is less violence. It's just different weapons. Guns are hard to get, expensive, and have an ultra cache, typically found among the heavies in the criminal underground. [Many are crap and don't work reliably]. That gives them a firepower advantage, but they don't typically use firearms against civilians (e.g. to rob them). They do that with manpower, clubs, knives and machetes (a weird and deadly favorite over there). The guns are used to dominate other gangland heavies. But they'd give a nut for just one of the guns you can buy on this site every day. Theirs are mostly crap. And they don't practice. Not enough ammo, too expensive, and they have almost nowhere to shoot without being noticed.

Whole different culture. One important difference: If you are a thug in the UK, and you break into a house, you can probably assume the homeowners, if they are there, have no guns, especially in the cities. Not so much here. If a bad guy comes into a house here, he doesn't know WHAT he's in for, but he has to think about it. I want him thinking about that before trying my door. If he still comes in, he'll find out.

 

[coosbaycreep]

I believe American Rifleman had an article recently about US civilians sending their personal firearms to the UK during WWII because they didn't have enough to protect themselves. Obviously they didn't learn anything from that experience.

You only have to look at China and all the mass murders that go on with knives to realize that know matter what you outlaw, sick people who care nothing about the law will find a way to kill people.

 

[deen_ad]

You only have to look at China and all the mass murders that go on with knives to realize that know matter what you outlaw, sick people who care nothing about the law will find a way to kill people.

Trouble is that the s called "news" very seldom reports on that. Not sensational enough I guess plus it doesn't suit their agenda.

 

[tunus]

So I spent the last 4 years living in Holland where gun ownership is restricted to members of shooting clubs. It was difficult to a) become a member and b) get the required permits. But even if you jumped through all the hoops and managed to get the permit, the firearm could never be used for self defense. The gun was to be loaded only right before target shooting and to be transported in the trunk of the car to your home. The official advice given to the people is to walk/run away from potentially harmful situations and then contact the police. If you happened to walk in a robber in your own home and couldn't get out before they saw you, you were to ask them politely to leave. You couldn't take any other action. As strict as gun laws are over there, they did have a massive shooting a couple of years ago when a mentally ill person opened fire in a busy mall killing 17 people. That person somehow had 5 weapon permits. Now the latest legislation reacting to this case is to require shooting club members to submit three character references before anymore firearm permits are issued.

I have talked to my Dutch colleagues many times on the subject of private gun ownership and they all oppose it. Even the strongest evidence and logic, often brought up on this board, couldn't change their minds. When I tried to put them in a hypothetical life threatening situation, I was repeatedly refuted with "It doesn't happen here. You've lived in the US too long and are too paranoid." They all lived in a bubble and thought even the thugs are not armed. Well, they were wrong. I was talking to my neighbor's teenage son one day on the subject. I had previously seen the kid hang out with some shady characters. Two days after our conversation, he saw me on the street, came up to me and offered me to connect me with his friends who were willing to sell me an illegal firearm. I refused but it proved that illegal firearms were readily available. My colleagues never believed me that happened. Boy, I was so happy to leave that country.

 

[Swedish K]

Stop I say, Stop or I'll yell stop again!

 

[Botte Hork]

Trouble is that the s called "news" very seldom reports on that. Not sensational enough I guess plus it doesn't suit their agenda.

How often is a good defensive gun use by an armed law abiding citizen anything more than local news that gets pushed to page 5 or further? Not often.

So I spent the last 4 years living in Holland where gun ownership is restricted to members of shooting clubs. It was difficult to a) become a member and b) get the required permits. But even if you jumped through all the hoops and managed to get the permit, the firearm could never be used for self defense. The gun was to be loaded only right before target shooting and to be transported in the trunk of the car to your home. The official advice given to the people is to walk/run away from potentially harmful situations and then contact the police. If you happened to walk in a robber in your own home and couldn't get out before they saw you, you were to ask them politely to leave. You couldn't take any other action. As strict as gun laws are over there, they did have a massive shooting a couple of years ago when a mentally ill person opened fire in a busy mall killing 17 people. That person somehow had 5 weapon permits. Now the latest legislation reacting to this case is to require shooting club members to submit three character references before anymore firearm permits are issued.

I have talked to my Dutch colleagues many times on the subject of private gun ownership and they all oppose it. Even the strongest evidence and logic, often brought up on this board, couldn't change their minds. When I tried to put them in a hypothetical life threatening situation, I was repeatedly refuted with "It doesn't happen here. You've lived in the US too long and are too paranoid." They all lived in a bubble and thought even the thugs are not armed. Well, they were wrong. I was talking to my neighbor's teenage son one day on the subject. I had previously seen the kid hang out with some shady characters. Two days after our conversation, he saw me on the street, came up to me and offered me to connect me with his friends who were willing to sell me an illegal firearm. I refused but it proved that illegal firearms were readily available. My colleagues never believed me that happened. Boy, I was so happy to leave that country.

I am from Holland, haven't lived there for just over 5 years and am indeed happy to not be there. Interestingly I recently opened a topic in the sort of private area on a fairly well known tech forum about my cpl and that people can ask me anything. It's funny how, even though I politely respond, I still am a crazy paranoid gun nut and my well argumented responses are somehow crazy while the hysteric responses are of course the sound of reason. Fortunately, that's not the only type of response. Many people ask honest questions and it gave some interesting discussion. Some also support the idea and I find that people that can count to 10 do show more sense when discussing, even if they were fiercly anti at first. They still are, but some accept my reasoning and that's it. I know I can't change people's mind, they need to do that themselves. One thing I think is essential is fear of the unknown.

Did speak to my parents about it as well, they are pretty cool about it and accept the reasoning. My dad's retired from the navy, so in his younger years there was some weapons training, my mom will visit us in December and I'll take her out shooting.

The mass shooting was in April 2011, in Alphen aan den Rijn, with 7 dead and 16 injured. A very sad case indeed and a typical Dutch thing happened: There's always a lot of blahblah about coverups elsewhere, but the Dutch police conveniently "lost" the document trail with the perp's approval. There's a history of "losing" essential stuff (in this case the document was in electronic form and "could no longer be opened". Many IT gurus and whiz kids (not me ) offered their help, but apparently that wouldn't be of any use).

Spoke to my mom about it during our cpl chat and I said: "What if someone close to him was carrying and had a clean shot? Might've saved some people". That argument did stick a little with her, so at least some small gain.


There are many reasons I don't want to live in Holland anymore (envy of success, narrowminded small thinking in many areas, claimed tolerance but only if you agree with us and what tunus calls "bubble", with about 30 years of experience I call it the tendency to keep the head warm between one's own cheeks), but the whole Western-European thing of having the state take care of you and happily giving away freedoms for it is perhaps the strongest one.