Self defense on the 'other side of the pond'

[tunus]

Botte Hork, you articulated what I experienced there better than I did and right on the money too. Thanks for clarifying some of the facts.

 

[hermannr]

You ask for EU/V/UK/V/US violent crime statistics? You might like this....Compliments if the Italians...http://www2.dse.unibo.it/zanella/papers/crime-EP.pdf

 

[9mmguy]

So I spent the last 4 years living in Holland where gun ownership is restricted to members of shooting clubs. It was difficult to a) become a member and b) get the required permits. But even if you jumped through all the hoops and managed to get the permit, the firearm could never be used for self defense. The gun was to be loaded only right before target shooting and to be transported in the trunk of the car to your home. The official advice given to the people is to walk/run away from potentially harmful situations and then contact the police. If you happened to walk in a robber in your own home and couldn't get out before they saw you, you were to ask them politely to leave. You couldn't take any other action. As strict as gun laws are over there, they did have a massive shooting a couple of years ago when a mentally ill person opened fire in a busy mall killing 17 people. That person somehow had 5 weapon permits. Now the latest legislation reacting to this case is to require shooting club members to submit three character references before anymore firearm permits are issued.

I have talked to my Dutch colleagues many times on the subject of private gun ownership and they all oppose it. Even the strongest evidence and logic, often brought up on this board, couldn't change their minds. When I tried to put them in a hypothetical life threatening situation, I was repeatedly refuted with "It doesn't happen here. You've lived in the US too long and are too paranoid." They all lived in a bubble and thought even the thugs are not armed. Well, they were wrong. I was talking to my neighbor's teenage son one day on the subject. I had previously seen the kid hang out with some shady characters. Two days after our conversation, he saw me on the street, came up to me and offered me to connect me with his friends who were willing to sell me an illegal firearm. I refused but it proved that illegal firearms were readily available. My colleagues never believed me that happened. Boy, I was so happy to leave that country.

The Netherlands, as well as many other European countries are much safer than the US, so your Dutch friends had a point there. I grew up in Western Europe, and while I enjoy my gun privileges here and would find it hard to part with my guns, I wouldn't feel unsafe without one there. As far as I know, every European country recognizes the right to self defense, so the "politely asking as burglar to leave" is a myth. It's pretty much like US states without a "stand your ground" law.

 

[hermannr]

The Netherlands, as well as many other European countries are much safer than the US, so your Dutch friends had a point there. I grew up in Western Europe, and while I enjoy my gun privileges here and would find it hard to part with my guns, I wouldn't feel unsafe without one there. As far as I know, every European country recognizes the right to self defense, so the "politely asking as burglar to leave" is a myth. It's pretty much like US states without a "stand your ground" law.

You didn't read the Itallian study, did you? The link is in the post above...you might really be enlightened.

As for self defence? There is no such in the UK, and the different European countries handle it their own way, try Spain...it is even difficult for the police their.

Anyway, take you Brady propaganda goggles off and read the Italian study.

 

[9mmguy]

No, I haven't read the whole study, though it looks interesting, and I'll definitely look into it a little more. But here is what I know...I grew in Germany and lived there until I was 25. I am quite familiar with most neighboring countries, including a bunch of the ones listed in your study, and what I can tell you is that there is a lot less fear of violent crimes in those countries than in the US.

The study you are citing excludes homicides but includes minor offenses, which make up the vast majority of the crimes in all countries. I would probably agree that the likelihood of being harassed or getting into minor brawls is higher in the European countries I am familiar with than in the US, but these kinds of incidents are usually not life-threatening, and a gun would not be very useful in these kinds of situations (unless you are willing to risk a total escalation of the situation). I would even argue that a lot of these minor crimes happen because fights do not turn deadly as quickly as in the US.

If you look at the statistics for homicide, the US seems the hover somewhere between 15,000 and 17,000 homicides per year. Depending on the sources I looked at, Germany has about 700-2,000 homicides annually. Germany has a quarter of the US population. I don't need to run a statistical test to show that it is significantly more likely to become a homicide victim in the US than in Germany.

By the way, I am not trying to paint a black and white picture here. I am not a friend of the tight guns restrictions in Europe - especially considering the history of the country I am from. But declaring the US with its sky-high homicide rate "safer" than Europe and then attributing this to gun ownership just grossly misrepresents reality.

 

[hermannr]

No, I haven't read the whole study, though it looks interesting, and I'll definitely look into it a little more. But here is what I know...I grew in Germany and lived there until I was 25. I am quite familiar with most neighboring countries, including a bunch of the ones listed in your study, and what I can tell you is that there is a lot less fear of violent crimes in those countries than in the US.

The study you are citing excludes homicides but includes minor offenses, which make up the vast majority of the crimes in all countries. I would probably agree that the likelihood of being harassed or getting into minor brawls is higher in the European countries I am familiar with than in the US, but these kinds of incidents are usually not life-threatening, and a gun would not be very useful in these kinds of situations (unless you are willing to risk a total escalation of the situation). I would even argue that a lot of these minor crimes happen because fights do not turn deadly as quickly as in the US.

If you look at the statistics for homicide, the US seems the hover somewhere between 15,000 and 17,000 homicides per year. Depending on the sources I looked at, Germany has about 700-2,000 homicides annually. Germany has a quarter of the US population. I don't need to run a statistical test to show that it is significantly more likely to become a homicide victim in the US than in Germany.

By the way, I am not trying to paint a black and white picture here. I am not a friend of the tight guns restrictions in Europe - especially considering the history of the country I am from. But declaring the US with its sky-high homicide rate "safer" than Europe and then attributing this to gun ownership just grossly misrepresents reality.

If you were to read the whole thing, even if you were to only look at the charts, you will see that your memories of your youth, do not equal what is happening today. Property crime and violet crime in Germany (and the rest of the EU) is approxamently 2X the same as in the US. If you factor in all of Europe and include the UK it is about 4 per 1,000 for the US and 11 per 1,000 for the EU+UK or almost 3X.

You would also find that the reason Homicide was not plotted specifically is taht different countries count homicide in different ways, some count the number of deaths by homicide (all, justifiable or not). Some count only homicide's that resulted in a conviction...that would be like comparing apples with potatos.

2010 FBI stats say the in the US there were 4.8 homicides per 100,000 population (US)...Some places were much higher (Newark, NJ had over 34 per 100,000 and the county I live in has had 7 homicides (total) in the last 10 years, works out to a little over 1 per 100,000.)

The current WORLD homicide rate is 9.6 per 100,000 according to google.

I will irriterate again: If you want the present US homicide rate to drop...end the war on drugs.

 

[Stomper]

The Netherlands, as well as many other European countries are much safer than the US, so your Dutch friends had a point there. I grew up int Western Europe, and while I enjoy my gun privileges here and would find it hard to part with my guns, I wouldn't feel unsafe without one there. As far as I know, every European country recognizes the right to self defense, so the "politely asking as burglar to leave" is a myth. It's pretty much like US states without a "stand your ground" law.

You are aware that its a RIGHT, not a privilege.... Hmmmm? Words mean things.