Scope mount and rings for new rifle

[capdek]

So I've reached out to Velzey at Copeland Custom Gunworks and he has graciously agreed to mount the scope and sight it in for a very reasonable price. Based on the reviews, I'm sure he will do a spectacular job.
There are still a few questions I have regarding my choice of caliber and scope, and I would appreciate opinions on this.
So I've been looking at the various choices for 7mm-08 factory ammo and it seems pretty much all of it is geared towards hunting as opposed to target shooting. I was doing more research and I noticed that Winchester just released the M70 SG in 6.5 Creedmoor and there seems to be much more target oriented factory ammo available in this caliber. From what I read, most target shooters using the 7mm-08 are loading their own ammo. I do have a Dillon 550 press that I use to load ammo for my 44-40 and 38-40 model 1892s, but these are considered pistol calibers and so my initial preference was to use factory ammo for the M70 SG. I know the M70 SG is probably more of a hunting rifle than a precision target rifle, but I'm wondering if I should at least consider going to 6.5 CM since I will be doing more target shooting than hunting with this rifle. The downside is there is no availability at the moment for the M70 SG in this caliber. Do you think I should consider cancelling my order for the M70 SG in 7mm-08 and wait for an M70 SG to become available in 6.5 CM - especially given that there seems to be significantly more choice for factory target ammo in 6.5 CM?
The second question I have is whether I should go with the 3-18x50 or the 5-30x50. The 3-18x50 seems more versatile for different types of hunting and target shooting applications and it offers a much larger range for setting elevation and windage, but the 5-30x50 seems like it will work quite well at 100 yards while reaching out that much further. And the 5-30x50 offers more precise targeting at all distances. I would like to try shooting out to 500 or more yards and my hope is the M70 SG will still be very accurate at these distances, although that will depend a lot on the choice of caliber and bullet. Assuming the consensus is to stay with 7mm-08, which of these two scope choices would you recommend? And which of the two would you recommend if the consensus was to swap over to the M70 SG in 6.5 CM?
I know, lot's of indecision here, but I'm spending some significant coin for this rifle and scope, and I want to make sure I'm getting the best bang for my buck .

 

[bsa1917hunter]

So I've reached out to Velzey at Copeland Custom Gunworks and he has graciously agreed to mount the scope and sight it in for a very reasonable price. Based on the reviews, I'm sure he will do a spectacular job.
There are still a few questions I have regarding my choice of caliber and scope, and I would appreciate opinions on this.
So I've been looking at the various choices for 7mm-08 factory ammo and it seems pretty much all of it is geared towards hunting as opposed to target shooting. I was doing more research and I noticed that Winchester just released the M70 SG in 6.5 Creedmoor and there seems to be much more target oriented factory ammo available in this caliber. From what I read, most target shooters using the 7mm-08 are loading their own ammo. I do have a Dillon 550 press that I use to load ammo for my 44-40 and 38-40 model 1892s, but these are considered pistol calibers and so my initial preference was to use factory ammo for the M70 SG. I know the M70 SG is probably more of a hunting rifle than a precision target rifle, but I'm wondering if I should at least consider going to 6.5 CM since I will be doing more target shooting than hunting with this rifle. The downside is there is no availability at the moment for the M70 SG in this caliber. Do you think I should consider cancelling my order for the M70 SG in 7mm-08 and wait for an M70 SG to become available in 6.5 CM - especially given that there seems to be significantly more choice for factory target ammo in 6.5 CM?
The second question I have is whether I should go with the 3-18x50 or the 5-30x50. The 3-18x50 seems more versatile for different types of hunting and target shooting applications and it offers a much larger range for setting elevation and windage, but the 5-30x50 seems like it will work quite well at 100 yards while reaching out that much further. And the 5-30x50 offers more precise targeting at all distances. I would like to try shooting out to 500 or more yards and my hope is the M70 SG will still be very accurate at these distances, although that will depend a lot on the choice of caliber and bullet. Assuming the consensus is to stay with 7mm-08, which of these two scope choices would you recommend? And which of the two would you recommend if the consensus was to swap over to the M70 SG in 6.5 CM?
I know, lot's of indecision here, but I'm spending some significant coin for this rifle and scope, and I want to make sure I'm getting the best bang for my buck .

"Best bang" for your buck? I'm going to be totally honest here and say you don't need the 5-30x50 for what you are describing. A 3-18 would work just fine. Secondly, if you really want a good scope, consider a Swarovski or even a Nightforce SHV. I, and other people I know, have had so many problems with Leupold that it will make your head spin. So, in a Swaro, my choice for hunting and informal type target shooting would be a Z5 3.5-18x44 (yes, I've used one before). In the Nightforce SHV, my choice would be a 4-14x50 F1. Both of these scopes are tough as nails and track as they are supposed to. For more of a hunting application, I'd lean towards the Swaro, because of its weight (much lighter). Your rifle will will be better balanced and feel better in the hands when out in the field. For throwing it up on a bench, weight and balance isn't really an issue and i'd lean more towards the Nightforce. If you really want more X's, you might even consider the SHV 5-20x56. Now on to the subject of the rifle choice.
I won't even get started on a rant about how the Model 70 isn't made here in the states anymore, but is now produced in Portugal. I don't even want to bring up the fact the trigger isn't the tried and true bullet proof, idiot proof, simple to adjust and tune, original model 70 trigger, but in fact a box trigger (MOA, as they call it). Besides the fact the model 70 probably won't shoot as well (out of the box) as some other manufactures. You and Velzey may just become great friends, because if it doesn't shoot to your standards, you may want him to re-do the glass bedding. Yes, I've had to re-bed quite a few BACO model 70's. You will also be wanting a lighter trigger, if in fact you are going to be stretching the range out and doing some "precision" type shooting. However, that is an extremely easy fix. Velzey will have to order you an Ernie the gunsmith trigger spring. That will, in most cases, reduce the trigger pull wt down to 2.5 pounds on the MOA. Now that most of the issues with that rifle are addressed, it's on to your choice in cartridge.
For the cartridge choice of a non handloader, I'd sway more towards the 6.5 creedmoor. In this instance, I'm more inclined to suggest it, because there are many more target/precision types of ammo made for it. It's also less expensive than 7mm08 because you can buy it in boxes of 50 and 200ct (Hornady American Gunner etc.) If the OP was a handloader, it would be a moot point because he could work up any kind of load he wants in the 7mm08. However, since it looks like he's wanting to buy factory ammo and do more target type shooting, I'd be looking more at the Creed as the better choice. I load for both cartridges and shoot both. We also all know the Creeds tend to be good shooters. Or at least we should all know that. It was a brainstormed idea by 2 individuals (one ballistics scientist from Hornady and the other, a VP from Creedmoor sports) looking to produce the most effective and efficient longrange cartridge that could be chambered in a short action rifle. As a result, the creedmoor has been around for 11 years and has really proven itself, in the field and at the target range. However, the only problem, I see, with the op wanting a Winchester model 70 supergrade chambered in the Creed, is availability: Who know's when anyone will have one in stock? Good luck there. Keep in mind, this is only my opinion, but based on honest experiences. Good luck with your search.

 

[North Plains]

Have you looked at any of the offerings from savage in 6.5 creedmoor?

 

[capdek]

My wife and I chose the M70 SG for the superb finish and the 'history' of the Winchester name (we have a number of old Winchester levers), and we figured it would work well for both target shooting and hunting in the 100 to 500 yard range. And we decided to go with 7mm-08 given the lighter recoil and ballistics compared to the .308. We are not really looking to become 'competitive' rifle shooters, but that doesn't mean we want to go out with our rifle and never be able to shoot anything smaller than a 3 inch group between 100 and 500 yards. I would like to think this rifle - out of the box - would be capable of shooting a very tight group at 100 yards and less than a 3 inch group at 500 yards with good quality 7mm-08 factory ammo, but maybe I'm deluding myself.
Do you think the Win M70 SG could do this with the right factory 7mm-08 ammo?
As for the scope, it would seem the 3-18x50 option - whether it be a Zeiss or Swarovski or Nightforce - would be the preferred choice for both target shooting and hunting with the level of accuracy and distance we are targeting. Swapping the scope for something different is a no-brainer, but cancelling the order for the M70 SG to go with something completely different would be a bit more involved.
In all honesty, my preference would be to stick with the M70 SG in 7mm-08 and customize it a bit for better accuracy, and consider handloading at some point for even better accuracy (assuming I could do it with my Dillon RL 550) rather than going with some sort of futuristic looking precision rifle setup or a more traditional looking rifle that's only available with a synthetic stock.
But perhaps I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. That's why I'm here - to learn if the M70 SG in 7mm-08 will meet my shooting goals.
Thanks for the honest feedback.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

My wife and I chose the M70 SG for the superb finish and the 'history' of the Winchester name (we have a number of old Winchester levers), and we figured it would work well for both target shooting and hunting in the 100 to 500 yard range. And we decided to go with 7mm-08 given the lighter recoil and ballistics compared to the .308. We are not really looking to become 'competitive' rifle shooters, but that doesn't mean we want to go out with our rifle and never be able to shoot anything smaller than a 3 inch group between 100 and 500 yards. I would like to think this rifle - out of the box - would be capable of shooting a very tight group at 100 yards and less than a 3 inch group at 500 yards with good quality 7mm-08 factory ammo, but maybe I'm deluding myself.
Do you think the Win M70 SG could do this with the right factory 7mm-08 ammo?
As for the scope, it would seem the 3-18x50 option - whether it be a Zeiss or Swarovski or Nightforce - would be the preferred choice for both target shooting and hunting with the level of accuracy and distance we are targeting. Swapping the scope for something different is a no-brainer, but cancelling the order for the M70 SG to go with something completely different would be a bit more involved.
In all honesty, my preference would be to stick with the M70 SG in 7mm-08 and customize it a bit for better accuracy, and consider handloading at some point for even better accuracy (assuming I could do it with my Dillon RL 550) rather than going with some sort of futuristic looking precision rifle setup or a more traditional looking rifle that's only available with a synthetic stock.
But perhaps I'm trying to have my cake and eat it too. That's why I'm here - to learn if the M70 SG in 7mm-08 will meet my shooting goals.
Thanks for the honest feedback.

I can truly understand your want for a model 70 supergrade. If you are a collector, it would make sense to want to have a new model in the inventory and collection. Even though they are made in Portugal. Hell, that may make them worth more money one of these days. The model 70 is a great rifle and I can appreciate your fine taste in firearms, but I do think you may be "deluding" yourself a bit if you think an "out of the box" supergrade (with factory ammo) will shoot 3" groups at 500 yards consistently. When I read this type of statement, I often ask myself "how much trigger time has this person actually had at 500+ yards????". I've had model 70's that shoot that well, but they were not supergrade models. More like swat style PBR's (police bolt rifle) chambered in 300 WSM and one 7mm rem mag that was tuned for long range. I'm with northplains again on his choice of savage for an "out of the box" accurate rifle. Tikka is another one I'd consider for an out of the box accurate rifle. Does that mean you can't get lucky and find a supergrade that is highly accurate out of the box? No, it doesn't. But your chances are so much better with the savage and Tikka, it isn't even funny.... Unless you like to tinker and can fine tune your rifle (as I suggested earlier) to shoot tiny groups, it will be a crap shoot with the winchester. To be perfectly honest.. You may be better off buying a Savage 12FV 6.5 creedmoor from Cabela's for $419.00 (soon to go on sale for an even better deal) and a SWFA SS 16X (for another $300.00) and use that to shoot 500+ yards. You are still not guaranteed less than 3" groups at 500 yards with that rifle though. The best I did with my savage 12fv 6.5 creed the other day was 3" (10 shot group) at 440 yards, so again I speak from experience. Then buy your 7mm08 and a suitable scope for hunting (more like the 2.5-10x40 range) and learn to sneak in closer to your prey. That is of course what hunting is all about. With that smaller lighter scope, it will pack better and balance better while you are carrying it in the field. It will also be more aesthetically pleasing, as is the whole reason to own a supergrade rifle. Isn't it?

 

[capdek]

You're right about us not having any real trigger time at 500 yards, so perhaps we were being overly optimistic. I certainly have read there are rifles out there that can punch very tight groups at that distance, but as I'm now learning, the M70 SG may not be the best choice to perform at this level - even with good 7mm08 hand loads. I guess I would just have to set my sights shorter (no pun intended) if I really prefer the M70 SG for its aesthetics.
Although the wife and I love to shoot, many would consider us collectors. We have tried to build a small collection of very high quality firearms over many years that we are extremely proud of and are also fun to shoot. From this perspective, we decided it was time to add a high quality gloss blue and wood bolt rifle to the collection. I suppose if I really wanted to play with the big boys in the precision rifle game, I could always add another high quality rifle to the collection down the road that would be better suited for that purpose.
Thanks for the great feedback bsa1917hunter. Although I would have preferred a slightly different answer, I don't want to make serious decisions based on erroneous assumptions.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

No problem sir. I wish someone else would chime in and help you out in your decision. Im not an expert by any means. However, i have owned and shot many model 70 rifles. They are some of my favorites. Id hate to deter anyone from buying one, but im also trying to be realistic and honest. If you did end up buying a supergrade and it shoots consistent 3" groups at 500 yards, id be the first one here to buy you a beer and celebrate. I always love it when a model 70 will drive tacks right along with the savage and tikka rifles. I have a few that actually do, but those are pre 64's...

 

[Velzey]

I've seen plenty of post 64 model 70's that are quite accurate.
To bad Tikka or Savage are not manufacturing a super grade. Folks would jump on them.

 

[capdek]

I took a look at both and Tikka does offer a rifle called the TX3 Hunter with decent looking wood and gloss bluing, but the trigger guard and removable magazine are made of plastic and a review of the rifle showed pretty poor accuracy even though Tikka claims 1 MOA accuracy on all their rifles.
Remington makes some very nice looking guns and the Remington model 700 is probably the most commonly used gun for every type of shooting out there. We looked at the 700 CDL and the 700 200th year anniversary limited edition, but the former is not available in gloss blue and the latter is just too over-the-top in frills for us, and this is why we ultimately chose the M70 SG.
I also took a look at the Kimber SuperAmerica. It is a beautiful gun right on par with the M70 SG and it claims sub MOA performance, but it is a $2200 rifle that's only available in .308 Win and my wife wanted something with a little less recoil. This was a pretty significant factor for her since the Kimber is a much lighter rifle at 5lbs10oz as compared to the M70 SG at 7lbs12oz. I also read some spotty reviews of the Kimber in terms of accuracy/reliability. In retrospect, perhaps I should have gone with the Kimber SuperAmerica - maybe asked them if I could get one made in 6.5 Creedmoor. Any thoughts?

 

[capdek]

Ill take a stab at answering my own question...
First off, getting Kimber to make me a custom SuperAmerica in 6.5 CM will up the cost well past $2200.
Second, even if I was willing to go with the factory SA in .308, it will ding me an extra $1000 for a much lighter rifle my wife will not enjoy shooting.
So, here's my thoughts at this point.
Stick with the M70 SG in 7mm08 and see how she performs. If she shoots sub MOA out of the box with a particular factory load, I'm done - I'm a very happy camper who'll be contacting bsa1917hunter for that beer.
If she doesn't shoot sub MOA out of the box, I can work with Velzey and buy some good quality dies for my RL 550 to hopefully get her there. And it seems likely I could get her there for less than $1000 - the extra cost for the factory Kimber SA in .308. Now I have a M70 SG that shoots sub MOA with much less felt recoil that my wife will enjoy for less money than an off the shelf Kimber SA. And although my lazy side likes the idea of buying factory ammo, I'm not afraid to load my own. I've been doing it for years for my 44-40 and 38-40 Winchesters and for my .357 Colt SAAs (light cowboy action shooting loads), and for my .38 Supercomp USPSA racegun.
And finally, if after everything, the M70 SG barrel is simply not up to the task, I can re-evaluate my options at that time - perhaps keep the gun for hunting and buy some less pretty precision rifle that will get the job done.
Does this make sense?

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Ill take a stab at answering my own question...
First off, getting Kimber to make me a custom SuperAmerica in 6.5 CM will up the cost well past $2200.
Second, even if I was willing to go with the factory SA in .308, it will ding me an extra $1000 for a much lighter rifle my wife will not enjoy shooting.
So, here's my thoughts at this point.
Stick with the M70 SG in 7mm08 and see how she performs. If she shoots sub MOA out of the box with a particular factory load, I'm done - I'm a very happy camper who'll be contacting bsa1917hunter for that beer.
If she doesn't shoot sub MOA out of the box, I can work with Velzey and buy some good quality dies for my RL 550 to hopefully get her there. And it seems likely I could get her there for less than $1000 - the extra cost for the factory Kimber SA in .308. Now I have a M70 SG that shoots sub MOA with much less felt recoil that my wife will enjoy for less money than an off the shelf Kimber SA. And although my lazy side likes the idea of buying factory ammo, I'm not afraid to load my own. I've been doing it for years for my 44-40 and 38-40 Winchesters and for my .357 Colt SAAs (light cowboy action shooting loads), and for my .38 Supercomp USPSA racegun.
And finally, if after everything, the M70 SG barrel is simply not up to the task, I can re-evaluate my options at that time - perhaps keep the gun for hunting and buy some less pretty precision rifle that will get the job done.
Does this make sense?

Makes a lot of sense. Sorry i couldnt answer sooner. Had to go out and win some turkeys.
Only 1 thing looked odd in your post: ive never heard of or seen a poor shooting tikka..

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Im real picky on mounts, rings and scopes. You most likely have read my opinion on scopes, and why I dont use the fancy ones, mine have build in range finder too, does that thing.
How I digress.

I prefer two piece mounts on a bolt gun. It give the scope flexes in case of being rigid like a one piece.
Better for the scope if its hit or dropped. Being I have a 700, I use Remmies 700 mounts, doh.
Rings, I sure like TBS. Ive had maybe 30 sets come thought the shop. never a bad one.
We are hitting sub zero out to 500 yards, cant complain.

 

[capdek]

Well the M70 SG, the Zeiss V6, and the Leupold DD rings with a choice of three different 2-piece mounts are now in the capable hands of Velzey. Quite frankly, it was painful as all get out to leave all my new expensive gear with a third party, but I'm about as confident as I can be he will do a superb job of professionally mounting that scope to that rifle with no cosmetic damage to either. That's the first step. Then we'll see how accurate she shoots out of the box with the new scope and we can go from there if needed. I'll keep you all posted on how it goes.

 

[capdek]

So first reports in from Velzey - the rifle out of the box is definitely a keeper! Perfect head spacing, good bedding, etc. Trigger pull was at 5 lbs 2 oz, but he's already ordered an aftermarket adjustment spring that will bring that down significantly. I'm sure when he's done, the trigger will be second to none. The safety is a bit stiff, but smooth, which he says is typical for a brand new M70, but he's working that to make it absolutely perfect as well. Next step is to mount the new scope and start test firing. In a nutshell, with some minor tweaks, the rifle has all the potential to be an extremely accurate shooter. And I can tell you that the rifle was absolutely perfect cosmetically out of the box - even and consistent high gloss blueing and a gorgeous black walnut stock with superb grain and checkering.
In summary, I'm very confident that with Velzey's help, this new rifle is going to be one of the prettiest and sweetest shooting M70s around! I'll keep you posted.

 

[capdek]

Last update - still waiting on the after-market spring although it should be in any day now. Velzey estimates the trigger pull of the factory MOA trigger with the new spring will be between 2 and 2.5 lb. max. We also discussed putting in a Timney 70 MOA trigger. I have a Timney in my wife's AR and it is superb. The 70 MOA is a drop-in trigger for the new Model 70 and you can get them for around $130 starting at a low 1.5 lb. pull going up in 0.5 lb. increments.
Any thoughts on the Timney?
I also created a new thread on the ammo/reloading forum to ask about recommended dies, die settings and brass/powder/bullet recommendations for creating accurate 7mm-08 handholds for the M70 using my Dillon RL550 press. If any of you have input along these lines, I would greatly appreciate it!

 

[orygun]

Any thoughts on the Timney?

We have two rifles I've put Timney triggers in and we love 'em. My rifle had a decent trigger, but I wanted better. I have the trigger at about 2 1/2# and it's near perfectly crisp (I can feel the most minute creep, but only at the bench). My wife's rifle, same thing just short action, had the worst trigger any of our other Rugers, now has a 3# pull and shrunk her groups to half of the size they were before.
I've only owned one Model 70, and while it's trigger was pretty crisp, it was HEAVY! Close to 6 pounds! If it hadn't been a nearly perfect Pre 64 I would have slam dunked a good trigger into it in a heartbeat!

I know there are more, good options, but I am happy with Timney.

As far as scope mounts, I've used the Redfield style on more than one rifle with good success. That's dovetail front, opposing screws rear. I would have used dual dovetail, but never found them when I need and I'm not that patient.
I like rings with a horizontal split. I'd try a vertical split if needed, but I'd do just about anything to keep from putting the old style, wrap over Weaver rings on any gun! To get a reticle square is an exercise in near futility. bubblegum, I hate them.

 

[capdek]

Thanks for your response to my reloading thread bye-the-way.
It sounds like a 1.5 lb. trigger pull might be too light - especially if I want to use the rifle for the occasional hunting trip. It sounds like 2 to 2.5 lbs. of pull would be ideal, and Velzey is confident he can get the factory MOA trigger feeling crisp at no more than 2.5 lbs. with the after-market spring.
Consequently, I'm going to let Velzey try the after-market spring if it arrives by no later than noon Monday. If it feels right, I'll stick with that for the time being. It is a much more cost effective solution than the Timney and it may be good enough for my purposes. If the spring has not shown up by noon Monday, I'm going to bite the bullet and order the Timney - probably with a 2 lb. pull just to be safe - and have it shipped overnight so it can be installed Tuesday. As you can tell, I'm pretty anxious to get my rifle finished.
Thanks again for the feedback.

 

[capdek]

OK, latest report from Velzey. You guys are not going to believe this! I really think there's a very good chance bsa1917hunter is going to owe me that beer.

Hello David,

I will give you a call shortly. And answer your questions. I had to get shooting in early to beat the rain. I went down to Douglas Ridge.
New Timney is wonderful, set at exactly 1.5lbs
Your not going to believe how well it shoots. Here is a sample.

This is a 4 shot group, from a sandbag rest at 100 yards.



As you can see, we decided to go with the Timney set at 1.5 lbs. Everything else is factory - including the ammo!
Now, do you think I'm a very, very, happy camper? You bet!

 

[capdek]

All four shots are practically through the same hole! Holy Toledo Batman!

 

[capdek]

So here is the rifle with scope - all done! What a beautiful and extremely accurate rifle! The wife and I couldn't be any happier. And the mounting job is absolutely perfect! You can't even begin to imagine how happy we are with the work Velzey did - he is truly amazing!