Road Rage Close Call Tonight

[ocarolan]

IF a person acts irrationally (and road rage is exactly that- irrational) uses their vehicle to physically stop you, and approaches yourvehicle in an aggressive manner, they have already given you good cause to believe they intend to hurt you.
...
As for robbers, a robbery (as opposed to a burglary) is confronting the victim directly. A robber is making an explicit threat of violence: give me what I want or I will hurt/kill you. The RCWs explicitly acknowledge your option to use deadly force in defense of your life, but also to prevent serious bodily harm. ORS have similar wording and intent. A robbery can go wrong in an instant even if the victim complies, and the line between physical and deadly force is not that clear until it haas alredy been crossed.

This is well argued and I'd support those choices. Mugging or road rage do suggest an intent to hurt, and I'd take your side as a jury member. This is legally sound.

That said, I follow Clint Smith's gunfighting rule #1: "if there is any way possible to avoid a gunfight, do it." To me, in this scenario, showing my gun is more likely to spark a gun fight than prevent one. It's an ultimatum to the road rager: "Go away or I'll shoot". Before, he may have planned on lecturing me or kicking my car. Now, he's in self-defense mode, and (if armed) thinking about shooting me. Or he may now feel compelled to shoot, to avoid losing face.

Anyway, anyone who repels a mugging or road rager with their CHL has my support. It's just not my choice.

 

[shredjesse]

I wonder what OSP would have to say about this.

At another forum where I am a member (PNW Riders - Pacific Northwest Motorcycle Riders namely sport bike riders) they have a section called "Ask an officer" and officers can sign up and become "Verified LEO" (law enforcement officer) and then respond to questions in there. Given the larger legal implications possibly involved with guns, and the significantly higher involvement of law enforcements with firearms than motorcycles, it might be an easier to handle situation.

 

[python287]

If I was armed I would not have gone racing off trying to lose the guy - very dangerous and you or your GF could have been killed in a Traffic Crash. Personally I would have stopped in the shopping center parking lot and called 9-1-1 and recorded the license plate of the vehicle. Had he approached I would have made it know that I was armed and for the dirtbag to stop. I might have even shown him the weapon. This clown has obviously
done this before to others and got away with it. Easy way to deescalate a situation like this is to let the person know that you are armed.. Most of the time that's the end of it. The bottom line is get a license plate #.

Pay attention to your surroundings - when you drive somewhere and see a vehicle that looks out of place or the person looks like this dirtbag - write down the plate # - that way if anything happens you are prepared with the needed info. Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6 !

 

[AMProducts]

You know, realistically, I've had pretty good luck just apologizing.

Similar situation happened to me a while ago, snailmobile, I pass, I get followed. I go about my business, when i see snail mobile follow me into the parking lot I draw my gun and rest it on my lap. Snail mobile pulls up... starts yelling. I look at them and say "I'm really sorry, I really have to go to the bathroom, bad case of diarrhea". At which point snailmobile says "oh" and drives away.

People who are being aggressive looking for a fight, will either take aggression back, or flight as a reason to continue that behavior. It's kinda like breaking up with that girl who is too dumb and annoying to understand that she's too dumb and annoying so you say "it's not you, it's me". Generally speaking, it's not the smart people who engage in road rage in states with high rates of concealed carry.

 

[teflon6string]

I'll never forget the time a passenger on my motorcycle decided to flip off a clueless moron who cut us off badly, causing me to paint a black rubber stripe on the pavement.

Then, instead of being embarrassed for doing something stupid and dangerous, the mental midget in the pickup chased us for probably 2-3 minutes (felt like half an hour) through some winding residential roads in an unfamiliar area. There is no doubt in my mind that he would have run us both over if he could have. Either we lost him or he came at least partially to his senses. I suspect the latter since two-up on a 500 twin in 1978 was not the swiftest way to get around. Needless to say, our heads were both on swivels until we were long gone from there.

Now this doesn't mean that I've never honked or flipped anyone off since then (it's been over 30 years), and I am fluent in IMNVC (International Motorist Non-Verbal Communications). But I remain keenly aware that some folks have extremely poor reactions to impromptu driving critiques administered by others.

One in a million? Perhaps. So how long does it take to drive/ride near a million total strangers these days?

 

[deen_ad]

Coming back from dinner Friday night we're in the right lane to turn onto I-5 north. car comes up on left with right turn signal on. I bgacked off the throttle to let him in but he runs out of room, so he pulls in close behind me. Then he tries to pass me on the right making the turn onto the freeway, then he tries the left so I slow down. Got to the end of the ramp and merged into traffic in the center lane, he stays in the right. I drive another couple miles @ 60 mph, about half a mile from the next exit he roars up behind me with all his bright/fog lights on high and sits right on my bumper. I lifted my foot and slowed to 50 (no brakes) and he stays very close to me (couldn't even see the headlights in my mirrors). I start to let off more throttle and he backs off and takes the exit. Glad I had my .44 Spec in the console and my .45 (both have CT lasers on them). At no time did I make eye contact or any type of jesture toward the person. I don't even know if it was a male or female!

 

[Burt Gummer]

 

[chase]

@ Burt,

Oh, is that what Krinkovs are good for?

 

[RangerEric]

Well I for one can think of no better use for a Krinkov! Have never wanted a 7.5" AR more than my little "incident"..!

 

[rsmccsman]

Here's a lesson my hot headed little brother learned awhile back.
We were driving along a country two lane road in his Toyota van, when a late model pickup pulled out of a private road and failed to notice us coming up rather fast. (My brother was driving over the posted speed limit).
My brother swerves around him, gets in front and slams on the brakes to a complete stop.
I told him to forget it, the guy just didn't see us and let it go at that.
He storms up to the older man, and is about to give him the riot act, when about 30 seconds later he returns to the car and is white as a ghost.
I asked him if he felt any better cussing out the guy and he said that he would never do that again.
After a couple of miles down the road, he told me what happened.
"I walked up to his truck, ready to give him a piece of my mind, when he lowered his window and laid a cocked large caliber magnum pistol on the window sill and made a clear and concise statement to me".
"There is nothing you can say to me, that is worth your life".
My brother had always had a short fuse. That episode changed all that. He is a more considerate driver, not in such a hurry as before and believe me he saw the light that day.

I had a similar experience except, I was in the position of the old guy in the story. About 20+ years ago I was driving home from work. I thought I was minding my own business when suddenly this guy pulls around me in his van missing my car by inches, cutting in front of me and slamming on his brakes like he was trying to get me to hit him. I slammed mine to avoid hitting him. He cut me off and with traffic conditions I had no means of escape. This was back before everyone had a cell phone so calling the police wasn't an option for me. He jumped out of his car and ran up to my car yelling and screaming for me to get out of the car so he could "kick my A$$." I put my right hand on my 640 Centennial but kept it out of sight between my seats. I locked the door with my left hand and then repeatedly told the guy "Get back in your car." while pointing at his car. I decided that if he tried to get in my car or break glass to come through my window I would shoot him. Fortunately he got frustrated when I wouldn't engage him and finally got back in his car and drove off. I kept thinking, "What an idiot, he doesn't know how close he came to getting himself killed over some imagined insult." To this day I have no idea what I did to piss him off. Whatever it was it wasn't intentional. I'm glad I didn't brandish the weapon to "scare" him off or make some witty comment like the guy in your brother's story. I think if I had showed him the weapon and he happened to have a gun of his own in his car he could have simply gone to his car to get his and I would have lost the tactical advantage of surprise. I think deciding that my gun wasn't coming out unless I was sure I had to use it was a good call. This was the only time I ever came close to actually needing to use my gun in self defense.

 

[DeadEyeMcGoo]

Question: Does anyone else feel that moving an altercation to the front of the store where other bystanders could get hurt would be a bad idea?

I'm not armchairing here. I know that the original poster did his absolute best in his situation. But this is a scenario I've thought about many times. My first instinct is to keep everyone else from harm, and that means keeping the fight away from them. With a GF on the phone and as a witness I wouldn't want anyone else (except the Police) to come in harms way. If there's the slightest chance that I have to draw my weapon, I want a clear field between and beyond my target.

 

[Galant]

Im not going to say what happened was the right thing to do or it was the wrong thing to do. I am going to say it worked. No one got hurt and your not spending anytime in jail. That makes it a well handled encounter.

Survive and thrive friend.

 

[JaggedIce]

i just wanted to say congratulations on being a stand up citizen and chl holder. We can think long and hard about "what we could of done", however ive noticed every chl holder ive met thats been involved in a scetchy or dangerous situation has always opted for avoiding physical confrontation.

your family is safe and thats whats important.

 

[Botte Hork]

Yeah, the CPL has put what little uhmm.... "agitation" I might have left on the road to the side. The tiny sliver that remained after becoming a dad. Guess I'm becoming an old dude now, even traded my V8 in for some family-ish car.

 

[sw20matt]

I wouldnt have ran from him just because once you are driving even at a save speed your attention is taken from the road and onto the guy and if he would have hit you it may have caused more damage than a fist fight.

if I would have been in the situation I would have done the same to try to avoid him up until you got back on to the road. I would have kept my distance and tryed to talk him down and told him to stay back and that you are armed. If he dosent believe you and wants to close in I would then draw and keep him at distance. he can either do two things here, turn around and leave or give you probable cause to shoot him. with witnesses and the passenger on the phone with 911 listning to everything I dont see how you could be portrayed to be in the wrong.

but good job for keeping a level head and doing everything possible to get out of there.

 

[ericb]

Y I look at them and say "I'm really sorry, I really have to go to the bathroom, bad case of diarrhea". At which point snailmobile says "oh" and drives away.

I love this, saying the word "diarrhea" diffuses almost any situation. Tactics wise I think this is perfect, be as nice as possible, until it's unavoidably time to kick their ***.

"Be polite, be professional, but have a plan to kill everybody you meet." -James Mattis

 

[Oregonhunter5]

I would of whipped his Azz.
But that's me.
Most deexks will back down. The rest will feel the ground and pound.
But I'm sure some folks would say hey, yourngonna get shot.
I like my odds.
Btw. If his happens more than once every 3-5 years. It's your issue.
Get a life coach

 

[rsmccsman]

Question: Does anyone else feel that moving an altercation to the front of the store where other bystanders could get hurt would be a bad idea?

I'm not armchairing here. I know that the original poster did his absolute best in his situation. But this is a scenario I've thought about many times. My first instinct is to keep everyone else from harm, and that means keeping the fight away from them. With a GF on the phone and as a witness I wouldn't want anyone else (except the Police) to come in harms way. If there's the slightest chance that I have to draw my weapon, I want a clear field between and beyond my target.

It is commonly recommended that if someone is following you that you go to a very public place like a store. The idea is that lots of witnesses will be a deterent. Since most people don't want to get caught it might work. If it doesn't then you know you are dealing with a completely irrational person and can make your subsequent decisions accordingly.

 

[Defense Minister]

So, why is the person obeying the speed law always the a**hole, rather than the guy who is breaking it, and thereby putting all others on the road at increased risk? This is a concept that I will forever fail to understand.

 

[Michael]

Forgive me if this was already brought up in this thread (looked but may have missed it), but I wonder if drawing from your holster while driving was the best tactical move. In at least one tactical class I have taken this was brought up, and one of the issues in the infamous Miami FBI shootout (one guy lost his gun when hit in his car by the bad guy).