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Providence Goes "Gun-Free?"

Discussion in 'General Firearm Discussion' started by cascadianliberty2012, Jun 9, 2016.

  1. cascadianliberty2012

    cascadianliberty2012 DPR Portland Well-Known Member

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    I noticed this new sticker a couple weeks ago at my work (as you can see, the sticker still has bubbles in it) and am a bit troubled at my place of work becoming an explicit soft target. I work in the most secure part of this hospital, so I'm less concerned for my own safety than the safety of others who work in the more vulnerable areas, such as the ER.

    Of course, this sign has no real legal significance in Oregon, but I'd like to know if anyone has any ideas of how to "educate" the Providence overlords as to the danger of putting such signs up around the hospital.

    Thanks!

    ***If this question is better suited for another forum, please move it***

    0605161425.jpg
     
  2. ChiefStealth

    ChiefStealth Graham, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    Management reacts to the loudest complaints. Don't waste time talking to Management. Educate the employees. Perhaps they will feel vulnerable. Especially those in ER. Maybe they will become the loudest complaint, and Management will react.
     
  3. tlfreek

    tlfreek Vancouver WA Active Member

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    bubblegum....no smoking....
     
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  4. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    Tell "them" to get manned metal detectors with armed guards or their stupid little stickers are merely a magnet for murderers, and that it also shows how stupid & foolish "they" actually are.

    :rolleyes:
     
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  5. 308

    308 ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ Platinum Supporter Silver Supporter

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    Well, a couple years ago one of the providence professionals sexually mollested a female worker in the parking garage stairwell. Since there are no cameras there, no proof could be given. The victim was advised to avoid the stairwells and the perp still goes about his day gainfully employed at prov.org. I don't think they are all that serious about crime.
     
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  6. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    Just as the British always say, keep calm and CARRY on! My attitude it this, when it come to these types of employers, what they don't know cant hurt them! No job is worth MY LIFE, I can always find another job, But my wife and my son's would be really pizzed off id dad got killed because he couldn't defend him self! My advice, And it is probably not good advice, is to do what YOU feel is right, If you feel the need to carry, then do it! To heck with what your employers rules are! Besides, rules are more guide lines as I see it, now if there was a law involved, then that's a different matter!
     
  7. cigars

    cigars Beaverton, USA Cav Scout/Armorer/Cold War/Communist Borders Platinum Supporter Gold Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    The Providence by me has valet parking. That's rich. I also noticed the stickers. What a bunch of snow flakes. I think this is a better one....

    IMG_20160609_112932.jpg
     
  8. erudne

    erudne The Pie Matrix PPL Say Sleeping W/Your Rifle Is A bad Thing? Bronze Supporter

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    All during Ramadan? Lunacy o_O
    Ramadan-Bombathon-2016.jpg
    These figures don't reflect the stabbings in Sydney, the church fires on the east coast nor the shootings in Ohio
     
  9. Osarion

    Osarion Snohomish County, WA Well-Known Member

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    Why is that?
     
  10. Camelfilter

    Camelfilter Salem Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Sign or no sign, I'd wager that there is language in your Providence employment manual specifically prohibiting weapons (of any kind).

    The hospital I work at stipulates having a weapon as immediate grounds for termination. There is no language in regards to permitted or non-permitted carry.
     
  11. slimer13

    slimer13 Deer Park Well-Known Member

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    Because signs do not carry weight of law in OR.

    Reading up on ORS, it appears that although they have prohibition of possession of firearms in public buildings which hospitals fall under, concealed carry liscence holders are exempt.

    Handgunlaw.us (http://www.handgunlaw.us)
     
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  12. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Sign? What sign?? I can't think of any hospitals/medical offices I've been to that didn't have those signs. They're fun to look at as I walk past them, carrying. And since it's legal for me to do so, I pay it no mind. The worst they can do to me (not an employee), is ask me to leave - but that would mean they need to know I have a gun to begin with - and we all know that concealed means concealed. I've never been 'made' for carrying, so I don't worry about it.

    Now, as an employee, they do have a right to terminate you if they find out you have a gun, in violation of the policies you agreed to as a condition of employment. With that in mind, carrying would be a bit of a risk, but a small one if you know how to conceal well and don't leave your gun sitting on the back of the toilet after dropping a deuce :eek: Honestly, the only time they should ever be aware you were carrying (I don't know if you do at work), would be if you pulled the gun in defense of your own life. At that point, you may lose a job, but you'll still be alive, and can look for another. Dead and employed is worth nothing. Living and unemployed is simply searching for the next opportunity.
     
  13. Stomper

    Stomper Oceania Rising White Is The New Brown Silver Supporter

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    FYI- women drop a "deuce", MEN drop a "quad".
     
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  14. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    I'm still confused as to why you gentleman believe that hospital signs don't carry the force of law.

    They are a private company, have signs prohibiting. Therefor they say no firearms on their property.

    Please cite ORS for explanation.
     
  15. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Before I respond with my information, I will ask a favor/question in return - can you cite the law (ORS) that states that a sign prohibiting carrying a firearm does carry the weight of law? Other than trespass, that is.

    So, here are a couple of references in the ORS that discuss the carrying of firearms and the carrying of firearms on 'public' property. First things first, nowhere in the ORS does it give a private employer the force of law with respect to restricting firearms - at least with respect to a 'gun crime'. The only place in Oregon, identified by law, that guns are absolutely prohibited (under the force of law) are Courthouses - and even there a CHL is not enough to grant you a pass. All other areas noted give an exception to CHL holders. I've read these many times before, nowhere does it grant a private business owner the right ban firearms, under the force of law.

    They have a right to put up the signs, they have a right to ask people not to carry, but the only law they can use to enforce it is trespass (I can't find the ORS reference to that, that comes from years of reading stories about people that were caught carrying). So it is legal, under Oregon law, to carry on their property, though they do have the right to ask you to leave their property - they cannot charge you with any 'gun crime' under Oregon law.

    § 166.250¹
    Unlawful possession of firearms

    (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260 (Persons not affected by ORS 166.250), 166.270 (Possession of weapons by certain felons), 166.274 (Relief from prohibition against possessing or purchasing firearm), 166.291 (Issuance of concealed handgun license), 166.292 (Procedure for issuing) or 166.410 (Manufacture, importation or sale of firearms) to 166.470 (Limitations and conditions for sales of firearms) or section 5, chapter 826, Oregon Laws 2009, a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:
    (a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;
    (b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or
    (c) Possesses a firearm and:
    (A) Is under 18 years of age;
    (B)(i) While a minor, was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470 (Limitations and conditions for sales of firearms); and
    (ii) Was discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court within four years prior to being charged under this section;
    (C) Has been convicted of a felony;
    (D) Was committed to the Oregon Health Authority under ORS 426.130 (Court determination of mental illness);
    (E) Was found to be a person with mental illness and subject to an order under ORS 426.130 (Court determination of mental illness) that the person be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm as a result of that mental illness; or
    (F) Has been found guilty except for insanity under ORS 161.295 (Effect of mental disease or defect) of a felony.
    (2) This section does not prohibit:
    (a) A minor, who is not otherwise prohibited under subsection (1)(c) of this section, from possessing a firearm:
    (A) Other than a handgun, if the firearm was transferred to the minor by the minors parent or guardian or by another person with the consent of the minors parent or guardian; or
    (B) Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose; or
    (b) Any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides in or is temporarily sojourning within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by ORS 166.270 (Possession of weapons by certain felons) and subsection (1) of this section, from owning, possessing or keeping within the persons place of residence or place of business any handgun, and no permit or license to purchase, own, possess or keep any such firearm at the persons place of residence or place of business is required of any such citizen. As used in this subsection, residence includes a recreational vessel or recreational vehicle while used, for whatever period of time, as residential quarters.
    (3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
    (4)(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this subsection, a handgun is readily accessible within the meaning of this section if the handgun is within the passenger compartment of the vehicle.
    (b) If a vehicle, other than a vehicle described in paragraph (c) of this subsection, has no storage location that is outside the passenger compartment of the vehicle, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:
    (A) The handgun is stored in a closed and locked glove compartment, center console or other container; and
    (B) The key is not inserted into the lock, if the glove compartment, center console or other container unlocks with a key.
    (c) If a vehicle is a motorcycle, an all-terrain vehicle or a snowmobile, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:
    (A) The handgun is in a locked container within or affixed to the vehicle; or
    (B) The handgun is equipped with a trigger lock or other locking mechanism that prevents the discharge of the firearm.
    (5) Unlawful possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor. [Amended by 1979 c.779 §4; 1985 c.543 §3; 1989 c.839 §13; 1993 c.732 §1; 1993 c.735 §12; 1999 c.1040 §1; 2001 c.666 §§33,45; 2003 c.614 §8; 2009 c.499 §1; 2009 c.595 §112; 2009 c.826 §8a; 2011 c.662 §1; 2013 c.360 §6]
    Note: The amendments to 166.250 (Unlawful possession of firearms) by section 11a, chapter 826, Oregon Laws 2009, become operative January 2, 2016. See section 14, chapter 826, Oregon Laws 2009, as amended by section 23, chapter 826, Oregon Laws 2009, and section 2, chapter 448, Oregon Laws 2011. The text that is operative on and after January 2, 2016, including amendments by section 2, chapter 662, Oregon Laws 2011, and section 7, chapter 360, Oregon Laws 2013, is set forth for the users convenience.

    166.250 (Unlawful possession of firearms). (1) Except as otherwise provided in this section or ORS 166.260 (Persons not affected by ORS 166.250), 166.270 (Possession of weapons by certain felons), 166.274 (Relief from prohibition against possessing or purchasing firearm), 166.291 (Issuance of concealed handgun license), 166.292 (Procedure for issuing) or 166.410 (Manufacture, importation or sale of firearms) to 166.470 (Limitations and conditions for sales of firearms), a person commits the crime of unlawful possession of a firearm if the person knowingly:

    (a) Carries any firearm concealed upon the person;
    (b) Possesses a handgun that is concealed and readily accessible to the person within any vehicle; or
    (c) Possesses a firearm and:
    (A) Is under 18 years of age;
    (B)(i) While a minor, was found to be within the jurisdiction of the juvenile court for having committed an act which, if committed by an adult, would constitute a felony or a misdemeanor involving violence, as defined in ORS 166.470 (Limitations and conditions for sales of firearms); and
    (ii) Was discharged from the jurisdiction of the juvenile court within four years prior to being charged under this section;
    (C) Has been convicted of a felony;
    (D) Was committed to the Oregon Health Authority under ORS 426.130 (Court determination of mental illness);
    (E) Was found to be a person with mental illness and subject to an order under ORS 426.130 (Court determination of mental illness) that the person be prohibited from purchasing or possessing a firearm as a result of that mental illness; or
    (F) Has been found guilty except for insanity under ORS 161.295 (Effect of mental disease or defect) of a felony.
    (2) This section does not prohibit:
    (a) A minor, who is not otherwise prohibited under subsection (1)(c) of this section, from possessing a firearm:
    (A) Other than a handgun, if the firearm was transferred to the minor by the minors parent or guardian or by another person with the consent of the minors parent or guardian; or
    (B) Temporarily for hunting, target practice or any other lawful purpose; or
    (b) Any citizen of the United States over the age of 18 years who resides in or is temporarily sojourning within this state, and who is not within the excepted classes prescribed by ORS 166.270 (Possession of weapons by certain felons) and subsection (1) of this section, from owning, possessing or keeping within the persons place of residence or place of business any handgun, and no permit or license to purchase, own, possess or keep any such firearm at the persons place of residence or place of business is required of any such citizen. As used in this subsection, residence includes a recreational vessel or recreational vehicle while used, for whatever period of time, as residential quarters.
    (3) Firearms carried openly in belt holsters are not concealed within the meaning of this section.
    (4)(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) and (c) of this subsection, a handgun is readily accessible within the meaning of this section if the handgun is within the passenger compartment of the vehicle.
    (b) If a vehicle, other than a vehicle described in paragraph (c) of this subsection, has no storage location that is outside the passenger compartment of the vehicle, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:
    (A) The handgun is stored in a closed and locked glove compartment, center console or other container; and
    (B) The key is not inserted into the lock, if the glove compartment, center console or other container unlocks with a key.
    (c) If the vehicle is a motorcycle, an all-terrain vehicle or a snowmobile, a handgun is not readily accessible within the meaning of this section if:
    (A) The handgun is in a locked container within or affixed to the vehicle; or
    (B) The handgun is equipped with a trigger lock or other locking mechanism that prevents the discharge of the firearm.
    (5) Unlawful possession of a firearm is a Class A misdemeanor.


    § 166.370¹
    Possession of firearm or dangerous weapon in public building or court facility

    • exceptions
    • discharging firearm at school
    (1) Any person who intentionally possesses a loaded or unloaded firearm or any other instrument used as a dangerous weapon, while in or on a public building, shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony.
    (2)(a) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (b) of this subsection, a person who intentionally possesses:
    (A) A firearm in a court facility is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony. A person who intentionally possesses a firearm in a court facility shall surrender the firearm to a law enforcement officer.
    (B) A weapon, other than a firearm, in a court facility may be required to surrender the weapon to a law enforcement officer or to immediately remove it from the court facility. A person who fails to comply with this subparagraph is guilty, upon conviction, of a Class C felony.
    (b) The presiding judge of a judicial district may enter an order permitting the possession of specified weapons in a court facility.
    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:
    (a) A sheriff, police officer, other duly appointed peace officers or a corrections officer while acting within the scope of employment.
    (b) A person summoned by a peace officer to assist in making an arrest or preserving the peace, while the summoned person is engaged in assisting the officer.
    (c) An active or reserve member of the military forces of this state or the United States, when engaged in the performance of duty.
    (d) A person who is licensed under ORS 166.291 (Issuance of concealed handgun license) and 166.292 (Procedure for issuing) to carry a concealed handgun.
    (e) A person who is authorized by the officer or agency that controls the public building to possess a firearm or dangerous weapon in that public building.
    (f) An employee of the United States Department of Agriculture, acting within the scope of employment, who possesses a firearm in the course of the lawful taking of wildlife.
    (g) Possession of a firearm on school property if the firearm:
    (A) Is possessed by a person who is not otherwise prohibited from possessing the firearm; and
    (B) Is unloaded and locked in a motor vehicle.
    (4) The exceptions listed in subsection (3)(b) to (g) of this section constitute affirmative defenses to a charge of violating subsection (1) of this section.
    (5)(a) Any person who knowingly, or with reckless disregard for the safety of another, discharges or attempts to discharge a firearm at a place that the person knows is a school shall upon conviction be guilty of a Class C felony.
    (b) Paragraph (a) of this subsection does not apply to the discharge of a firearm:
    (A) As part of a program approved by a school in the school by an individual who is participating in the program;
    (B) By a law enforcement officer acting in the officers official capacity; or
    (C) By an employee of the United States Department of Agriculture, acting within the scope of employment, in the course of the lawful taking of wildlife.
    (6) Any weapon carried in violation of this section is subject to the forfeiture provisions of ORS 166.279 (Forfeiture of deadly weapons).
    (7) Notwithstanding the fact that a persons conduct in a single criminal episode constitutes a violation of both subsections (1) and (5) of this section, the district attorney may charge the person with only one of the offenses.
    (8) As used in this section, dangerous weapon means a dangerous weapon as that term is defined in ORS 161.015 (General definitions). [1969 c.705 §§2,4; 1977 c.207 §2; 1979 c.398 §2; 1989 c.839 §22; 1989 c.982 §5; 1991 c.67 §39; 1993 c.625 §1; 1999 c.782 §7; 1999 c.1040 §4; 2001 c.666 §§24,36; 2003 c.614 §6; 2009 c.556 §6]
     
  16. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

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    Oops... When I said force of law... I worded that wrongly.

    The trespass is what I was referring to.

    I've seen no exceptions that state we as CHL holders can go against their corporate policy and be allowed to trespass legally with something they ban from the premises.

    I mean when their rights as a company and their private property end, so do mine by whom I allow on my property, and what I allow here.

    Marijuana is banned from my property. Doesn't mean that if you have a dope card you are allowed on this property with it.

    We are granted the ability on public property, state property and private property that does not prohibit it - to carry concealed.

    (Let's avoid the legalistic ramblings on if this is legal in the first place to sell a right back to citizens)
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  17. Camelfilter

    Camelfilter Salem Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    My (new & limited) understanding about the signs is simple:

    You can't get arrested for carrying a handgun, but would be in violation of the private companies policy, and thereby would be subject to trespass.

    Myself as an employee couldn't (?shouldent) get arrested, but similarly could/would get a trespass order. I therefore wouldn't be able to work there, as I would be trespassing & then become subject to arrest.

    Coworkers I know have carried at work, because they have discussed such.

    ...but...concealed is just that, I wouldn't have known, had they not mentioned it.
     
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  18. Camelfilter

    Camelfilter Salem Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Oh & as mentioned previous, doesn't apply to courthouses & federal buildings.

    Ranger stations & park visitor centers stick out in my mind, where you would risk getting charged & would have to surrender your CHL.
     
  19. slimer13

    slimer13 Deer Park Well-Known Member

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    Think of it like a club with a dress code. They can have a no t shirt rule, put up signs that say no t shirts, but you will not be charged with a crime if you enter wearing a t shirt because they are legal. You can be charged with trespassing if they say "hey, no t shirts, leave now!" And you dont.
     
  20. Koda

    Koda Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter 2016 Volunteer

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    the short answere: you cant get arrested for carrying and you can ONLY be arrested for tresspassing if you refuse to leave immediately and peacefully when asked.