Parker Hale Volunteer .451 HenryHe rifling

[JWvI]

Hello All,

Will be looking at a .451 Parker Hale 3 band Volunteer shortly, serial number H8xy. Rifling should be Henry since the serial number starts with an H. Am I correct in assuming this? As it looks the previous owner took good care of it. Anyone advise for things to look for?

Thanks in advance,,

Jan-Willem

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[tac]

Yup, H for Henry rifling - only a few hundred were made like this so you really lucked in there. If you check the underneath of the barrel and let me take a look at the proof mark, if can tell you exactly when it was made.

This here is my Whitworth from 1980 -



Here's a bullet for your rifle - weighs 535gr - mould by Lyman, or NOE, if you are rich.



The front sight is a/m and you've also got the push-through bullet sizer - do you have the correct mould for it?

Loads for this rifle are 1 1/2Fg Swiss - 75 to 90gr, with a card wad between the powder and bullet. I'm not going to insult you by suggesting how you load it, but there IS a right and wrong way to do it.

In the MLAGB here in UK, and in the NMLRA and MLAIC we shoot these rifles, with correct tang sights, out to 600 yards with sling only - no rest except for the left wrist from 800 - 1200. Rules may vary.

 

[JWvI]

Hello Andy,

Thanks for the reply and info, in the Netherlands it takes quite a while to sort out paperworks in order to be able to pick up a licensed rifle. Certainly around this time of year when we all have to renew our permits. Hope to be able to pick up the Parker Hale early next year.. To be honest I wasn't planning to buy another muzzleloader but I was to weak when this nice Parker Hale came up for sale.
Do you mean the front sight is aftermarket? It seems to be a high quality attachment to the barrel but then again I have not seen many of these Parker Hale's, will have a closer look once the rifle is in my possesion. Anyway I am glad it has the tunnel front and diopter rear sight: my eyes are not getting any younger/better. I have read quite some articles about the loading and inbetween cleaning procedures and I think I realise why these are all needed for a optimum result. There is a bullet mould made by Helmuth Mohr: a really well known German black powder shooter/gun and mould builder: will have to see how it and with what loads it will perform consistent it will cast bullets of a little below 500 grains according tot the current owner. Official shooting distances here are 50 meter offhand and 100 meter prone. I will stick to the 50 meter distance: that is the length of our range, also with two new knees and worn hips and ankles it is not easy to get down and up for every shot. As for advise: I am not going to be insulted by any advise from anyone: this is the only way to go forward and learn from each other. I am almost sure that there is more than one way to make this Parker Hale perform better than the guy behind it, and many ways to make it perform way below it's capabilities despite a perfect guy behind it.
Nobody has the full wisdom, some people think they have it but it quite often turns out to be the fool wisdom.

JW

 

[Andy54Hawken]

@JWvI
That was our most excellent forum member @tac who helped you out....
Andy

 

[tac]

The issue foresight for ALL the Parker-Hale rifles in .451cal is like this -



I've never tried shooting any of my small-bore BP muzzleloading rifles from standing position - it is not allowed on the ranges in our club except the 25m range, and nobody shoots this kind of rifle at 25m.

I did not intend to insult you by mentioning a specific loading procedure - I'm sure you know what you are doing.

Good luck.

 

[JWvI]

The issue foresight for ALL the Parker-Hale rifles in .451cal is like this -

View attachment 1336191

I've never tried shooting any of my small-bore BP muzzleloading rifles from standing position - it is not allowed on the ranges in our club except the 25m range, and nobody shoots this kind of rifle at 25m.

I did not intend to insult you by mentioning a specific loading procedure - I'm sure you know what you are doing.

Good luck.

Hello tac, I didn't see it as an insult at all! I am always willing to listen to how other people work with black powder rifles and learn from it. Never too old to learn! Maybe it is my (blunt) Dutch way of saying things. On our range at SV Davy Crockett we "only" have in indoor shooting hall with 12 50 meter shooting points. The Dutch shooting rules for historic muzzleloader weapons are governed by the KNSA and are based on/copied from MLAIC disciplines, for the Parker Hale Volunteer this would be the Vetterli discipline: shooting 50 meter off hand in a standing position. As it looks the foresight is not original but it is one of the reasons I bought the Parker Hale: diopter and tunnel sights: as mentioned in my previous post my eyes are not good enough for open sights anymore and I still like to shoot! Will check however if there still is a dove tail visible under the current front sight. I will let you know the serial number on the underside of the barrel. Also the results once I know the rifle and have figured out what loads it prefers.

Take care,

JW

Was just watching The Parker Hale "Volunteer" Military Target Rifle: Introduction, Loading and Firing from British Muzzleloaders on youtube where at 1:46 a similar front sight is shown on a Parker Hale Whitworth rifle as is on my Parker Hale Volunteer? Could it have been an option from Parker hale?

 

[tac]

I am familiar with Parker-Hale firearms since the late 1970s, and can assure you that at no time did they ever offer alternative sights of any kind to their products, which were based solely on the patterns and gauges belonging to the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield Lock, North London.

Any sights that you see that are different to these pattern sights are after-market items, like yours.

You quote Rob's article at 1:46 - that is the muzzle of an actual Whitworth rifle, not a Parker-Hale replication. Even the Parker-Hale replication of a Whitworth three-band match rifle has the usual Parker-Hale Volunteer foresight - here are both of mine as examples -

Serial #420 from 1980 -



And Serial #888 from 1986 -



Perhaps you would be more at home with a rifle that is designed for shooting from the standing position, like the Pedersoli Bristlen á Morges, rather than the uncomfortable to shoot P53 variety, much hated by American shooters unused to the peculiar but very successful British military 'side-on' method of shooting with such a straight stocked firearm. Shooting the usual charge is also going to entertaining, to say the least - 80gr and a +500gr bullet from the standing position - indoors - is something I'd prefer to watch, rather than indulge in.

 

[tac]

Me Bon Sauvage - please read your conversations - and for our new friend JWvL, please watch the current 50m World Champion, Dr Bálasz Németh [aka capandball on YouTube] as he shows HIS style with HIS Bristlen here -

In the USA the N-SSA regularly hold shooting competitions for the service arms used in the conflict - I'll try and find some comments from one of my other favourite sites - muzzleloadingforum.com, home of many such shooters, and post them here.

 

[tac]

For you and anybody else...from my friends on muzzleloadingforum.com

When I shot N-SSA in the eighties, I shot the 315 grain wadcutter minie over 35 grains of FFFg Goex, lubed with our team's secret lube. Sized one thousandth under bore size in my 2-band PH Enfield, it would cloverleaf shots all day at 50 yards without cleaning between shots.

ADK Bigfoot


@maillemaker

I am not familiar with the rules for his sport, but for N-SSA competition, you'll want to follow these general guidelines:

• Size your bullet to .001"-.002" under bore size.
• Utilize a consistent method for dispensing your powder.
• Weigh your bullets and discard anything outside +/- .5% of average.

I recommend doing a load workup, from a bench, starting at 40 grains through 60 grains, in 5 grain increments, 10 shots each charge weight.

There won't be any functional difference between shooting an Enfield or a Springfield.


@PathfinderNC

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Dear All - at the risk of making myself a pest, again, Let me ask for help and advice for a newcomer from The Netherlands over on another forum.

He is hoping to get hold of a P53 of some kind, with a view to using in the the Dutch BP Association 'Vetterli' competition - 50m standing and 100m prone. With new knees he'll be standing only, plus his range is only 50m.

I'm trying to help him out by showing him this excellent video form capandball - no better advice is out ehre - he is the current MLAIC World Champion, with a Bristlen á Morges target rifle, but for those of you who shoot a P53 - NOT a Springfield - and have any advice I would pass on - I would be in your debt. PS - he intents to shoot a Minié-style bullet á la service use.

TIA
Click to expand...

I am guessing N-SSA member @dave951 might be of help with this question.

Mailemaker pretty much nailed it. He's also N-SSA. The only difference I would recommend is 3g increments because it is entirely possible to be dead between the best charge level at 5g. Past that, lube experimentation is also critical.

Interesting factoid about Mailemaker is he really does know how to make chain maile armor

A well appointed gentleman will never suffer from a lack of good books, red wine, nor too much ammunition.
North South Skirmish Association- Palmetto Sharpshooters/NRA Muzzleloading Instructor

 

[JWvI]

Hello all,

Thanks for sharing all the info, maybe I could have been a little bit clearer in my initial post: reason for my questions was that, since I started shooting with the Magic Black Powder, I have only seen a few Parker Hale Volunteers. I now am the proud owner of a few original breechloading BP rifles with calibers ranging from 38-55, 45-70, 50-45-400 and Snider .577 as well as a 50 Lancaster muzzleloader I built some 25 years ago from a kit bought at the Log Cabin Lodi Ohio, a 34mm caliber half scale canon and a .22LR BSA. I once had a UK made PH Musketoon that I reget selling but luckily it is still in our club. I am used to off hand shooting with quite stiff loads and heavy bullets however the last five or so years I have been working on reduced loads in order to be gentle for my neck hernia.
Loads for the Volunteer will be defined using the Figure of Merit sheet kindly provided by Rob from British Muzzleloader: a very helpful form!!
Having read the articles in the various forums I found loads for the Volunteer varying between 40 and 90 grain. In the original leaflet that will come with the Volunteer a load between 60 and 90 grain is proposed. As soon as I can start shooting I will most likely start with a charge a little bit lighter and work my way up provided that the flat based bullets that also come with the rifle are soft enough.
In the mean time I have been searching through some old tins and cigar boxes I took over from the founder of our club and found an almost new front sight with some spare posts as is shown by Tac in one of his previous posts as well as some berylium copper and steel nipples and some Parker Hale woolen mops.
Now back to watching the mailbox: hopefully the updated permit shows up soon!

JW

 

[JWvI]

Picked up the Parker Hale Volunteer yesterday together with some reloading and cleaning equipment. Did a rush job to get some loads ready for today: 40 grain Swiss 2: 15 charges and some 120 bullets came with the rifle, greased some of the "herr doctor Mohr" bullets with the old black powder grease: bees wax, lard and olive oil which was already in my lubrisizer and went to the range this morning. Loading procedure similar to Rob's (from BM"loaders) Parker Hale Volunteer loading procedure. Shot a nice group a little high and right, a few college shooters tried it as well and had an even better group. Did some measurements this afternoon on the bullets that came with the rifle and found that the difference in weight was close to 10 grain with the majority of the bullets around 491 grain. Bullets didn't look that good either: some voids in the circumference indicating that the mold was to cold or the lead not hot enough. Hardness was ok: 5-6 BHN indicating an almost pure lead composition. Bullet size was checked with the Parker Hale sizer supplied with the rifle: bullets seemed to be on the small end of the scale, will check with a micrometer. Grouping was fine for a first attempt taking the difference in weight in account. Bullets are sorted now and as soon as the weather allows I will be casting some new bullets hopefully with a more consistent weight and appearance.
The marking on the underside of the barrel is an L and a G left and right of the crossed swords and a number 1 at the bottom indicating 1985 as the year it was built. The front tunnel seems to be soft soldered to the barrel and the rear sight is a Thompson Center diopter which is fine with me: as mentioned before my eye sight is not good enough for the original sights. All in all quite happy with the initial results and a beautifull Parker Hale! Mpre to follow.

 

[tac]

Picked up the Parker Hale Volunteer yesterday together with some reloading and cleaning equipment. Did a rush job to get some loads ready for today: 40 grain Swiss 2 (15 charges and some 120 bullets came with the rifle, greased "some herr doctor Mohr" bullets with the old black powder grease: bees wax, lard and olive oil which was already in my lubrisizer and went to the range this morning. Loading procedure similar to Rob's (from BM"loaders) Parker Hale loading procedure. Shot a nice group a little high and right, a few college shooters tried it as well and had an even better group. Did some measurements this afternoon on the bullets that came with the rifle and found that the difference in weight was close to 10 grain with the majority of the bullets around 491 grain. Bullets didn't look that good: some voids in the circumference indicating that the mold was to cold or the lead not hot enough. Hardness was ok: 5-6 BHN indicating an almost pure lead composition. Bullet sizes was checked with the Parker Hale sizer supplied with the rifle: bullets seemed to be on the small end of the scale. Grouping was fine for a first attempt taking the difference in weight in account. Bullets are sorted now and as soon as the weather allows I will be casting some new bullets with a more consistent weight and appearance.
The marking on the underside of the barrel is an L and a G left and right of the crossed swords an a number 1 at the bottom indicating 1985 as the year it was built. The front tunnel seems to be soft soldered to the barrel and the rear sight is a Thompson Center diopter which is fine with me: as mentioned before my eye sight is not good enough for the original sights. All in all quite happy with the initial resutls! Mpre to follow.

View attachment 1350675

Good news indeed! I'd be grateful for the serial number of your 1985-dated rifle for David Minshall of Research Press, competition secretary of the MLAGB, and current world champion 600 yards military match - for - I think - the fifth or sixth time. He is compiling a register of serial numbers of ALL P-H BP firearms.

Here's my Whitworth [again?] -

 

[JWvI]

Serial number is H806

 

[tac]

Henry-rifling version - VERY nice to have! and thank you.

David Minshall would like to know the length of the barrel, please.

 

[JWvI]

Henry-rifling version - VERY nice to have! and thank you.

David Minshall would like to know the length of the barrel, please.

Hello Tac,

It is a 3 bander and the barrel length is 86cm measured inside, not inluding the small chamber in the breech plug.

JW