NRA statement on open carrying of long guns

[BlindedByScience]

I CC pretty much everywhere and I will tell you that a bunch of folks walking into a public place with rifles with inserted mags would immediately capture my attention and scrutiny.

The only way we win this is to educate people. You don't do that by scaring the crap out of them. I get it that it's a person's right to open carry but that doesn't make it a smart tactic when it's hearts and minds we have to educate and win over. You can deny that, you insist that "it's your right" (which it is) but all I ask is that folks look at the national press they are getting and ask themselves, honestly, if it's helping or hurting our cause.

 

[bnsaibum]

I think it's very constructive. If you want the fake gun thing to work, first you have to stop them from doing the very thing that's causing the problem in the first place. So yeah, I'll keep talking about it because it's part of the problem. Keeping silent about it, as you would suggest I and others do - I don't see how keeping silent about the poor choices being made in the OC crowd helps our cause in any way. If you don't want to talk about it, that's fine, I'm not content to just let it go unsaid - especially when someone tells me to keep quiet about it

I didn't say keep quiet about it, I'm saying there is a better way to get them to change their tactics. You (and I) want them to stop their current counter productive behavior. Offer them a viable alternative that is shovel ready. Telling any open carry Texan that they are 'stupid' for open carrying will do nothing but put their backs up. Saying that there is a better way and showing them what you mean just might get their attention. Complaining is doing the antis work for them. It causes division as evidenced in this and so many other threads in various forums.

 

[AMProducts]

Sadly.. There are so many secret shame firearm owning folks posting here..

With your logic.. I could hardly take my rifle from my house to my car without having to go out of my way as to not scare off the sheeple and hoplophobesall the while making a mad dash to the trunk or front door in the hopes as to not scare any socialist vegans who might dare lay eyes on my evil black rifle.

Your ideals turn our sport, lifestyle and community into one of evil and shame.. Its just as bad as the gun grabbers.. I see their brainwashing has seriously influenced many of you.

So willing to turn on each other..
Our evelutionary stage is not even one iota above an animal.. We are still savage, ruthless beasts.. Willing to sell out and ostracize one another for our next meal.. Or in this case to somehow figuratively grasp onto that last thread that is the tapestry of our constitutional right.. Which you all have made a tentative one..

Just as we see with false "racist" accusations.. You all stand on the other side of the street with the mob mentality low information folks and point along with the crowd preaching: "Im not with him" or
"Im not a part of that" ..only to better fit in with those who despise us, and you.. No matter who you throw under the bus.. Perhaps one OC'er, perhaps all of them.. The truth is hoplophobes and socialists will hate you no matter what, OC or not.. You're a firearm owner and thats enough.. God forbid you're christian, white and conservative.

Our brotherhood is weak at best.

So here's the deal... the Black Panthers were one of the last groups who did a lot of "open carry" activism back in the 60's and 70's and having a group of black radicals got even Ronald Reagan to freak out and ban "loaded open carry" in california (he was governor at the time). The NRA crowd is the black rifle crowd, trying to draw distinction between black rifles and any other rifle is as silly as any assault rifle ban.

If you look at the NRA statement: ITS RUDE TO CARRY A LONG GUN INTO A PUBLIC ESTABLISHMENT, is not a bridge too far, and it's exactly this kind of behavior that is going to curtail your right to walk around in your front yard with a rifle.

It's your right to be an a$$hole, that doesn't mean you should be upset when people call you on it.

 

[etrain16]

I didn't say keep quiet about it, I'm saying there is a better way to get them to change their tactics. You (and I) want them to stop their current counter productive behavior. Offer them a viable alternative that is shovel ready. Telling any open carry Texan that they are 'stupid' for open carrying will do nothing but put their backs up. Saying that there is a better way and showing them what you mean just might get their attention. Complaining is doing the antis work for them. It causes division as evidenced in this and so many other threads in various forums.

It would be nice if it were that easy. But the OC folks I know would be offended by an offer to carry a 'fake' gun on their belt. That's not what they want to do - they would see that as a defeat of their rights. No, I do think someone needs to make it clear to them, in no uncertain terms, that their actions are harming the rights of the rest of us, plain and simple. And I'm not calling anyone 'stupid', I am, however calling them out on their tactics - tactics that are hurting us, not helping. Go ahead and try to get them to carry plastic guns in expensive holsters, if you can get them to do it. I'll be surprised if any would agree to do it.

 

[Riot]

Classy...my post was deleted from this thread...why? Because I dissagreed with the NRA?

To summarize:

Pistol in a holster= Fine
Loaded rifle slung at the ready= Not okay

 

[deadeye]

Classy...my post was deleted from this thread...why? Because I dissagreed with the NRA?

To summarize:

Pistol in a holster= Fine
Loaded rifle slung at the ready= Not okay

I do not see a deleted post are you sure you hit "post reply"? In fact there are no posts that have been deleted in this thread.

 

[slickx45]

My concern is that the people who are engaging in these displays as a means to "educate" the public are losing sight of the fact that their message is getting lost in the delivery. The best example I can offer is that if you came home to your significant other and said "Honey, I love you." versus screaming at the top of your lungs "HONEY, I LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!" You are saying the same thing, yes, but I am pretty sure the 1st method of communicating would be much better received.

Richard

 

[mjbskwim]

And I fully support it. We can't afford to be divided on this issue. And I refuse to hear that refraining from carrying a rifle in public is just "common sense." Hmmmm, where have I heard that before?

This new crap sucks for trying to quote someone. Why change things that work?
bubblegum It will read bubblegum but says fornicate.

Why do you want to put us as antis just because we don't agree?
Isn't that what America was made for? 1st amendment? Free thought and speech?
Or would you have that taken away so everyone agrees with YOUR ideals?
I don't have to agree with you to still be Pro 2nd amendment
So please throw that bubblegum right out the bubbleguming door.

 

[The Heretic]

Golly aren't we a little self righteous

I don't 'hide' my guns to 'not scare' anyone while loading. I lived in Tacoma/Lakewood where I didn't care for the whole neighborhood to see what I was loading.

Even right now, living on 20 forested acres where we have seen cougars and seen/heard coyotes (yipping and howling at night) in the area, I generally don't go around armed.

When I lived anywhere in an urban/suburban area I was careful not to display firearms when moving them from a vehicle into my residence. One time I had a person assume I was a musician because of the large cases - I did not disabuse them of their mistaken impression.

The reason? I don't want everyone to know my residence is the source of a bunch of firearms. I don't want my house to get broken into. I don't want neighbors to point to me if/when police come around asking who has guns.

When,throughout time, has carrying a rifle been anything but for a real problem.hunting something or someone down? Wasn't the rifle most always left in the truck or on the horse?
Even when everyone carried a six gun they didn't carry their rifle around with them on their back

Yes and kind of no. Even when I was a kid (4+ decades ago) if we went into a restaurant/etc., we didn't leave the rifles hanging in plain view, we put them behind the seat.

I wasn't around in the "wild west", but I kind of think that for at least some people, when they went into town, they didn't leave their long guns hanging out in plain sight on their horses for fear of it getting stolen - back then that rifle represented a larger investment for them.

That said, horses don't have a place to hide a long gun, much less securely lock it up - most automobiles do.

Scaring people into accepting guns will not work.

+100

 

[1337BaldEagle]

Why do you want to put us as antis just because we don't agree?
Isn't that what America was made for? 1st amendment? Free thought and speech?
Or would you have that taken away so everyone agrees with YOUR ideals?
I don't have to agree with you to still be Pro 2nd amendment
So please throw that bubblegum right out the bubbleguming door.

Let me assure you I still have the up most respect for you guys in spite of our disagreement.

"Why do you want to put us as antis just because we don't agree?"

I'm not putting you as antis just making note to the fact that no one, not one, is discussing the situations that brought on this issue in the first place. Like the fact that Open Carry Texas was invited, the fact that Open Carry Texas is a rather friendly group of like minded individuals who feel compelled to open carry rifles or register with the state. It's a paradox that thankfully we (mostly) don't have to deal with in this state. And that the complaint that alerted the corporate level of the restaurant was made days later by a person who gleaned a photo of the even off Open Carry Texas website.

We (as a majority of the group) seem to be content with giving up a right because it is "common sense" (a phrase quoted from the NRA, and etrain16 used). We as a gun community will argue time and time again that "the AR15 platform is the best sporting rifle there is and there is no reason that you should fear it over an average Remington 700 in 30-06 and that it should be treated in the same respect if any" yet we are being called bubblegum holes by people like etrain16 and 3MTA3 in posts #6 and #14 and being told that we ought not display our rifles when protesting. Ironically the opposite message that this community is screaming.

"Isn't that what America was made for? 1st amendment? Free thought and speech?"

Yes, it is. You will NEVER see me contradict this. I wouldn't even push for an exception even if I was debating an Anti. I will also point out that I never even remotely said that. Ironically, we are talking about protesting freely, in a lawful constitutional way to express how our freedoms have been limited. I am not the one advocating for limits on how people may express their dissatisfaction with the way the US perceives their rights.

"Or would you have that taken away so everyone agrees with YOUR ideals?"

Again, no. I have never pushed for that nor will I ever. That is the fundamental idea that makes this country so great. I am curious how my post led you to believe this though. Feel free to share how you came to that conclusion about me.

"I don't have to agree with you to still be Pro 2nd amendment"

Again, I never said that. Not at all. But I will say this: even Biden is Pro 2A in his mind, that is not to say that you are Biden or like Biden. But we would be remiss if we didn't knowledge that there are multiple "levels" if you will of how people perceive the 2A. Mine just happens to be a more conservative view.

"So please throw that bubblegum right out the bubbleguming door."

I have no response, except "okey?"




Eagle

 

[etrain16]

I'm not putting you as antis just making note to the fact that no one, not one, is discussing the situations that brought on this issue in the first place. Like the fact that Open Carry Texas was invited, the fact that Open Carry Texas is a rather friendly group of like minded individuals who feel compelled to open carry rifles or register with the state. It's a paradox that thankfully we (mostly) don't have to deal with in this state. And that the complaint that alerted the corporate level of the restaurant was made days later by a person who gleaned a photo of the even off Open Carry Texas website.

We (as a majority of the group) seem to be content with giving up a right because it is "common sense" (a phrase quoted from the NRA, and etrain16 used). We as a gun community will argue time and time again that "the AR15 platform is the best sporting rifle there is and there is no reason that you should fear it over an average Remington 700 in 30-06 and that it should be treated in the same respect if any" yet we are being called bubblegum holes by people like etrain16 and 3MTA3 in posts #6 and #14 and being told that we ought not display our rifles when protesting. Ironically the opposite message that this community is screaming.

Eagle

Honestly, I don't know what you have against 'common sense' - I don't care if others have misused the phrase for whatever purpose, it's still a good idea. And the fact that OC'ers can't seem to get it in their heads that their actions are having a negative impact on public perception and our 2nd amendment rights, shows they are not using common sense. Don't like that term? How about rational thinking? How about considering others and not just yourselves? Call it what you want, but picking on the term "common sense" is just a lame way to avoid the real problem.

Also, I never called you or anyone else an a$$ hole - I wrote post #14, and I used the term 'arrogant a$$'. If you're going to go after me, you should at least get that part right.

That said, I know we're on the same side of the 2A here, but we clearly disagree on the best methods for addressing this issue. I'm okay with that. The world would be a very boring place if we all had the exact same opinions.

 

[1337BaldEagle]

"having a negative impact on public perception and our 2nd amendment rights, shows they are not using common sense"

I would hardly call Chipotle's reactions a valid test for public perception. Regardless, most of the anti "OC'ers" again don't want to talk about or even entertain that there are ways in which OCing is appropriate. I would say going to an event or after even that you have been invited to reasonable especially when the invitee knows you will be open carrying. I really don't know how one can argue with that. I mean is private property not private property? What Open Carry Texas not within reasonable standings even within you definition of what is appropriate?

I OC every day. Not my rifle mind you but my Walther P99. I don't like CC because it is rather uncomfortable, it's restricting, and it furthers the "out of sight out of mind" perception that people have about people that own guns. For me it is my way of life, the way I go about my day to day. I smile at everyone I pass, I hold doors open for people going into buildings. I am a poster child not because I crave attention but because I do this every day of the year. Now in Texas they don't have the option of OCing a pistol with or without a permit. I would say this is one of Open Carry Texas's biggest call to arms. So, what do they do? They do what is permitted, not as a call for attention to gratify some inward need because you weren't hugged as a child. It is a soap box to pull attention to the absurdity that you can carry a rifle open legally but you are not allowed to carry a pistol for self defense without registering with the state, and further must undergo strict rules even with the registration. It is a paradox. It's stupid. And you can bet your bottom dollar that if Oregon was to try to pull something like that I would be out on the street every off day I had with my AR. Further, I would support any business that INVITED me and mine to come in and eat after an event, so armed.

Seeking from experience I can tell you I have have never had one person express a negative outlook on OCing after talking with me. I had one neutral after but never negative.

I feel we as a community has jumped on the band wagon and are misplacing blame for the degradation of rights.

Just the way I see it.

Eagle

 

[etrain16]

"having a negative impact on public perception and our 2nd amendment rights, shows they are not using common sense"

I would hardly call Chipotle's reactions a valid test for public perception. Regardless, most of the anti "OC'ers" again don't want to talk about or even entertain that there are ways in which OCing is appropriate. I would say going to an event or after even that you have been invited to reasonable especially when the invitee knows you will be open carrying. I really don't know how one can argue with that. I mean is private property not private property? What Open Carry Texas not within reasonable standings even within you definition of what is appropriate?

I OC every day. Not my rifle mind you but my Walther P99. I don't like CC because it is rather uncomfortable, it's restricting, and it furthers the "out of sight out of mind" perception that people have about people that own guns. For me it is my way of life, the way I go about my day to day. I smile at everyone I pass, I hold doors open for people going into buildings. I am a poster child not because I crave attention but because I do this every day of the year. Now in Texas they don't have the option of OCing a pistol with or without a permit. I would say this is one of Open Carry Texas's biggest call to arms. So, what do they do? They do what is permitted, not as a call for attention to gratify some inward need because you weren't hugged as a child. It is a soap box to pull attention to the absurdity that you can carry a rifle open legally but you are not allowed to carry a pistol for self defense without registering with the state, and further must undergo strict rules even with the registration. It is a paradox. It's stupid. And you can bet your bottom dollar that if Oregon was to try to pull something like that I would be out on the street every off day I had with my AR. Further, I would support any business that INVITED me and mine to come in and eat after an event, so armed.

Seeking from experience I can tell you I have have never had one person express a negative outlook on OCing after talking with me. I had one neutral after but never negative.

I feel we as a community has jumped on the band wagon and are misplacing blame for the degradation of rights.

Just the way I see it.

Eagle

And I'll say it again, for about the 3rd or 4th time on this thread - I'm not against open carry. I conceal carry for my own personal reasons - it's just a better choice for me. I have no issue with open carry folks that do so without making a big deal out of it. Walk around with a pistol on your hip - I'm okay with that, in fact, I encourage it for those that are so inclined. I'd love to see more folks do it simply because it would help to educate the public about guns being carried safely.

But if I've not made myself clear, my issue is with those that have the attitude not of carrying and just going about their lives, but rather those that go out of their way to make a public spectacle of the whole thing. You simply can't deny the negative press and attention that generates. And to be clear, I've not been referring to Open Carry Texas or the Chili's/Sonic issues in this thread. I'm speaking in general terms about OC and some of the issues that have been created by those that choose to do things like march around the outside of a school with an AR or filling a public place with a whole group of AR toting folks - time and time again, even though the events are peaceful, it garners negative publicity for the pro-gun community.

You don't have to convince me that OC is okay, or that it's one of our rights. What I'm advocating for is to think about the consequences that some of these OC gatherings have on all of us.

 

[etrain16]

Two males wanted to prove a point (or something), probably didn't break any laws, and didn't hurt anyone.

The business says "no firearms", didn't break any laws and didn't hurt anyone.

If you don't like people open carrying rifles, why not contact your city, county, and state reps to get the act deemed illegal... Or work on removing the rights to limit firearm possession by private property owners.

"Didn't hurt anyone" is a matter of opinion - if they, by their actions, converted more people to the anti-gun side of the line, then yes, they've hurt someone - the rest of the legal gun owners. We don't need more voters working against us. Like it or not, some of these events have a negative impact, and yes, that does hurt us.

And read my last post - I'll say it again, I'm not against open carry, nor do I want to see it made illegal. Don't distort what I'm saying to try and make your point.

 

[1337BaldEagle]

"I'll say it again, I'm not against open carry, nor do I want to see it made illegal"

We are not saying that you are, just that in Texas, where the recent bad press is coming from, it is illegal to OC the way that most of us would enjoy doing if so inclined.

I don't think that anyone should be ashamed of partaking in a Right. I guess the over all point I'm trying to make is it's the manner in which we hold ourselves when we OC that really should be in question not where or when or how we OC especially when it is being done lawfully.

Anyway, the point is, I guess I could see doing what they do if my OCing of my pistol rights came under threat like theirs is. I guess that's why I play this close to my chest.


Eagle

 

[etrain16]

I don't think that anyone should be ashamed of partaking in a Right. I guess the over all point I'm trying to make is it's the manner in which we hold ourselves when we OC that really should be in question not where or when or how we OC especially when it is being done lawfully.

Anyway, the point is, I guess I could see doing what they do if my OCing of my pistol rights came under threat like theirs is. I guess that's why I play this close to my chest.


Eagle

I don't have any disagreement with you on this last post. I believe we're trying to say essentially the same thing, but semantics seem to get in the way at times.

 

[etrain16]

...and


Have you have been hurt physically, mentally or monetarily by these 2 males action to open carry rifles in a fast-food restaurant? It is not an opinion... you were either hurt, or you were not.

I have edited my post to indicate my reply was not directed at anyone in particular. My point is that taking action by complaining on the internet about a firearm act that is legal is less admirable than two males in poorly staged photo-op exercising their right to bear arms.

The problem I have with your response is that you're limiting the definition of "hurt" to physical, mental or monetary pain. Come on, if you want to make a legitimate argument, you can't just ignore the parts of "hurt" that don't benefit your side of the issue. If the actions of someone OC'ing in such a way that it causes negative reactions from people, who then go to work to limit more and more gun rights, then yes, I and others have been 'hurt' by those actions.

As for complaining on the internet, isn't that exactly what you're doing? You're complaining about our comments, what's the difference? It's a an internet forum - it's a place for comments, discussion, debate, even arguments. I don't get much opportunity to discuss these things with people at work, for example, so this is where I can go to discuss them.

As for the 2 guys in Texas, that's only one event that's a part of the overall issue, and was one I wasn't addressing in my posts.

 

[1337BaldEagle]

An OFF Alert:


NRA is backtracking on its attacks on open carriers in Texas. It had previously called open carry of rifles "weird" and "downright foolish." Lots of others piled on. Some of the harshest and most vulgar attacks came from people who claim to be gun owners themselves, some on this very page.

Many have claimed open carriers were "hurting the cause." Some think because of the actions of open carriers we could "lose our rights." This is an interesting position. Why would you be concerned about losing a right you don't think you should exercise in the first place?

Clearly in cases like this, open carry is an act of protest. We don't think the Texas open carry folks actually anticipated a firefight. They were making a point. Protests are, by their very nature, provocative. (See the "Portland Pride" parade or any event by La Raza.) Yet while people in Portland can march down the street nearly naked and engaging in lewd behavior at a "Pride" parade, and this is not only protected by the powers that be, but encouraged as an act of free expression, openly carrying firearms in manner that was legal, and by all accounts safe, is attacked by the NRA and many gun owners.

Few gave much notice to the fact that open carry of handguns is illegal in Texas. The only kind of protest "permitted" to Texans is the open carry of long-guns.

We're gratified that NRA has modified its position.



And here is the link to the page they linked. Read the text don't just listen to the video.



Eagle

 

[etrain16]

I agree, I limited the definition of hurt on purpose. I did not include negative effect.

The true "hurt" comes from the fear of a tool. When social norms dictate what rights we hold. When appearances are punishable. When the only firearms visible are in the hands of those in control.

I don't think I have complained about comments. I just stated that if people posting against open-carry of rifles do not like the act, why not contact their reps to have it deemed illegal. Making the right to open-carry of rifles illegal would prevent people from damaging public opinion and it would protect the rights of people who want to open-carry handguns and conceal-carry handguns.

Again I wasn't addressing you specifically in my statement on "less admirable to complain on the internet than to exercise a right"... The point I was trying to make is that if one has the time to complain they may also have the time to take action.


edit (I have trouble forming sentences verbally and written. One too many booms.)

Just so there's no misunderstanding, I'm not angry, just a bit passionate about what I believe. I do agree with you that it's the 'fear' that is the problem. Someone earlier stated that the issue wasn't that people were exercising their right to open carry, but the message was being lost in how that message was being presented.

Honestly, I'm not in favor of any law that would make open carry of rifles illegal. I don't think that would really solve the problem, nor do anything to help with public perception - if anything, it would serve to further reinforce the irrational fears that some have.

I would like to see people have the ability to open carry - pistol or rifle makes no matter to me, all I've been asking is that some consideration be given as to the how, when and where of those choices. There simply are some times and places where it's better to make the choice not to do it. For example, if I chose to open carry to work, I'd probably lose my job. I may be protesting for my rights, but the company would exercise their right to dismiss me for violating company policy. That doesn't mean I've lost my right, any more than I've lost my first amendment rights by my company limiting my ability to call a customer an a$$.

I would rather that the folks who are trying to make a statement (and again, I'm not referring to Texas), would consider that sometimes, in some places, it's just not a good decision. That's it. I think that's a more than acceptable point of view that doesn't have to end in our 2A rights being further restricted.

 

[balaperdida]

How things have changed. As a teenager in LaGrande in the 1950's, I would ride my bike through town to the indoor gun club with my unloaded rifle across the handlebars. No one ever paid any attention. Not that it was a good practice. I might have crashed and damaged my rifle. Still have it, by the way.