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Very few of those random shootings happened during the Trump years. Obama years we had a lot of them. Coincidence?
Las Vegas (deadliest in US history)
Sutherland Springs
Stoneman Douglas High School
Thousand Oaks
Pittsburgh Synagogue
Santa Fe High School
El Paso Walmart
Virginia Beach

And that was only in the first three years of Trump (2017-2019). Way more than Obama had per year. Do a Google search next time.

It's funny because you guys like to have it both ways. When it happens under Trump, your answer is "Presidents don't cause mass shootings". When it happens under Obama, your answer is "coincidence?" At least try to be consistent.
 
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ZA_Survivalist

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It's not surprising there isn't any substance behind your one liners. That's about as deep as most conspiracy theories like "fabricated school shootings" get.
Ill walk you through this:
No, you simply want to frame an argument and drag out some facebook type debate. You took what I said without considering what else it ties into, chose to inject your own interpretation then attempted to label me while establishing a specific argument.

As I see it, you are not here for productive dialog. To me, your other posts on various threads are proof of that. Therefore Im choosing not to engage with you. I can see what you’re attempting here and it just wont work. Feel free to move on.
 
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Supposedly there were over 500 "mass shootings" in 2020... but here's the kicker.

They defined it as "where more than 4 people excluding the shooter, were injured or killed", and included criminal activity, gangs, family disputes, and lets see... the vast majority were.. you guessed it.. criminals and gangs...close to 50% of the number reported involving... commercial and retail premises.

This also reminds me of how a certain organization defined "school shootings" as any shooting that happened within 1,000 ft of a school, and at any time.. so that included a lot of gang shootings, some suicides done at night outside school hours, and police involved shootings.
 
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Oh, and the FBI defines "mass murder" as any killing that has more than 4 killed victims. There's double murder, triple murder, murder-suicides, and mass murder. Notably, this definition includes mass poisoning, stabbings, explosives, and arson.
What is your ideal definition of a "mass shooting"?
 
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What is your ideal definition of a "mass shooting"?
A shooting done solely as a shooting, with indiscriminate victim targeting, and not related to criminal /gang activities (like robbing/looting a store, or as revenge against companies/family/disputes, or in relation to gang warfare). Its similar to a terror attack but not the same; as a terror attack involves political or social or religious motivations.
 

gmerkt

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Presumably the cause of action would be based on some sort of negligence. The statute of limitations would shield you from much of that exposure.

To some extent transfer through an ffl with a background check also would shield you.

I think most people don't understand the basis of firearms manufacturer liability protection. The product these companies make, if working properly, are intended to some degree or another, to hurt or kill other living things, including people. What would the basis of a valid lawsuit even be? The product did what it should? It'd get tossed on summary judgment almost all the time. Accordingly, the only purpose is to shield manufacturers from the cost of nuisance lawsuits. (BTW vaccine manufacturers have this sort of legal protection too, because some small percentage of the population WILL have an allergic reaction, so protect the makers of vaccines that protect public health.)

I hadn't thought of the statute of limitations thing. So that reduces my personal exposure considerably. But as time goes by, the idea of "You can sue anybody for anything" is gaining evermore traction. So it won't surprise me if individual lawsuits over gun sales advance. Including against FFL dealers. "You knowingly sold an instrument of death" or some such.

Vaccine manufacturers are protected against liability by federal law. There is a section in 42 US Code that covers this. This is the one where a fund was set up to compensate people who had adverse reactions, the pharms pay into the fund kinda like insurance. Good lawyers can probably find ways around this, I'm guessing.
 
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A shooting done solely as a shooting, with indiscriminate victim targeting, and not related to criminal /gang activities (like robbing/looting a store, or as revenge against companies/family/disputes, or in relation to gang warfare). Its similar to a terror attack but not the same; as a terror attack involves political or social or religious motivations.
Ok, so it sounds like based on your definition all the following qualify as mass shootings:

Las Vegas (deadliest in US history)
Sutherland Springs
Stoneman Douglas High School
Thousand Oaks
Pittsburgh Synagogue
Santa Fe High School
El Paso Walmart
Virginia Beach
 

MichaelH

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A shooting done solely as a shooting, with indiscriminate victim targeting, and not related to criminal /gang activities (like robbing/looting a store, or as revenge against companies/family/disputes, or in relation to gang warfare). Its similar to a terror attack but not the same; as a terror attack involves political or social or religious motivations.

Since we're all talking--I'm not going to get into the argument above about the existence of school shootings--the phrase "mass shooting" should surely include shootings where at least some of the victims were targeted. There are very few mass shootings where all the victims are completely random. Murder of several people with a firearm random or not has the same result and the same common denominators--the use of a firearm and the criminality of the perpetrator--regardless of motivation. Maybe factor out gang shootings, but even those incidents of gun violence have innocent collateral victims. The phrase "going postal" that we all associate with the phenomena of mass shootings came from workplace revenge. The targeting of that newsroom in Baltimore was perpetrated by a guy who had a grudge because of reporting about his DV arrest even if he didn't kill the editor who ran it or the reporter who wrote it. Even Kip Kinkle was after revenge in some way when he attacked his school. To the victims of those attacks, the violence that ended their lives (or their loved ones) was just as unexpected and random seeming as the nice folks watching a concert in Las Vegas. From the perspective of the gun control advocates there is little to no difference. Mass shootings are just bigger more visible and newsworthy incidents of gun violence that can be used as evidence to shape policy, but anyone with a brain knows that most gun deaths in America are from suicide and less newsworthy shootings with fewer casualties.
As gun owners, if we want to remain credible in debates over whether gun control laws are reasonable or too burdensome (yes, I know some of us think that they're all tyranny....I'm not talking about you) we can't ignore facts that the general public sees as relevant and true when they shape the debate.

As an aside, this thread has veered radically off topic.
 
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Not really. A key point in the JoHo Admin's push for further stripping our rights is the perception that there is a crisis.

That is not statistically true, so it is worth noting.
What however is a crisis is the simple fact that in places where law enforcement isn't allowed to actually enforce laws, crimes go up, violent crimes significantly.
 

MichaelH

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What however is a crisis is the simple fact that in places where law enforcement isn't allowed to actually enforce laws, crimes go up, violent crimes significantly.

Not so subtle dig at us city dwellers.... That's ok. I'll live with the risk and expense to have decent coffee in waliking distance to my house. (Oh everything else I need is in walking distance too, except somehwere to shoot and a decent surfbreak).

There has actually been a huge increase in gun violence in America during the pandemic, even if not mass shootings. My bet is that the police ARE trying to police/solve violent crime and they are ignoring the relatively petty property crime (I said relative...a plate glass window isn't close to serious injury to or death of a person). I suspect that crisis IS driven by real criminal activity, not a loon looking for revenge on all the Chads and Shellys or his coworkers who didn't recognize his genius. Does gun control stop that kind of crime....in a country where we have more guns than people....nope.
 

Soli

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Not so subtle dig at us city dwellers....

I doubt he meant it that way.

Impunity is the death of community. The disagreement on what is “petty” reveals a fundamental difference in perception of what creates and what destroys community. That's the dynamic in these conversations.

Anonymous writing back and forth is a poor way to communicate when disagreement is so fundamental. Communication doesn't really happen there, IMO.

Anyway, contradicting what I just typed and hoping against hope, I certainly am not taking a dig at anyone when I say that the stand down of the police is the biggest deal in the past year. When authority goes away, and people learn about the new impunity, new authority rises.

The irony of de-legitimizing the police is that “police”, ie, authority to use violence, doesn't go away. It simply changes hands.
 

Wombat of Doom

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There has actually been a huge increase in gun violence in America during the pandemic, even if not mass shootings. My bet is that the police ARE trying to police/solve violent crime and they are ignoring the relatively petty property crime (I said relative...a plate glass window isn't close to serious injury to or death of a person). I suspect that crisis IS driven by real criminal activity, not a loon looking for revenge on all the Chads and Shellys or his coworkers who didn't recognize his genius. Does gun control stop that kind of crime....in a country where we have more guns than people....nope.
Source? Because this does not seem to be the case. It is true that the current administration encouraged violence and rioting last year. This seems contrafactual that there is a huge increase in gun crime.
 
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