Missed Opportunities

[bradsteen]

I was thinking about some guns today that just didn't quite make it. The designs were ok, but there were some obvious things that could have been done to vastly improve the marketability of the product. Those guns have since fallen into obscurity. Which leads me to the point of the thread:

What guns out there did you think showed some promise, but just missed the mark?

• What gun? (Make, model, caliber)
• What about it was promising to you?
• What about it fell short of your expectations?
• If you were the manufacturer, what would you have done differently with it?

Read More

 

[kmk1012]

I really would it call if a failure or missed opportunity, as I have like 5 of them but I'd say the Ruger MK & 22/45's only having a ten round option. Especially with some of the mags on the market today, even Taurus has a reliable 16 round 22lr mag for the TX22 that I have.

 

[VinnieBoomBah]

Remington R51 9mm
Cool historical design
Sloppy QC and tolerance stacking doomed it

 

[CountryGent]

• What gun? (Make, model, caliber): Marlin, Camp-45, .45 ACP
• What about it was promising to you? Light, handy carbine, with traditional styling, and fed from standard 1911 magazines.
• What about it fell short of your expectations? Cracking stocks. Bolt hold-open issues. Buffers that dry out/crack. Weak factory springs.
• If you were the manufacturer, what would you have done differently with it? None of those issues couldn't be resolved with a little work. Threaded barrel would be nice. Not likely to ever happen now though. (Wife has a carbine similar in concept, so imagine it could be done.)

 

[lucusloc]

Ruger 44 carbines come to mind. They did ok when they first came out, but not well enough that Ruger wanted to continue the line. But now they are fantastically popular on the used market, but absolutely no one is interested in a remake or even a redesign into a more modern platform. The closest you can find is 44 lever guns, and some stuff that is supposed to mimic 44 mag in a new (quite a bit less available) cartridge (typically for the AR-15 platform). But no one actually makes a semi-auto 44 carbine (let alone a whole line of big bore semi-auto carbines in classic cartridges).

And you can't tell me that "it's the rimmed cartridges in a semi-auto package that causes problems" because the Ruger 44 carbines already did it. Both as a tube fed and a rotary magazine variant.

If it were up to me I would take a Ruger carbine in everything from 357 mag up though 45-70. Someone should get on that.

 

[pizzamike]

For me personally it's a gun that is in current production that I really wanted to like. Take it for what it's worth. I have my own PERSONAL concerns.

Firearm - Sig P320
Promising - The modularity of the platform
Concern - Safety/mechanical issues
Manufacturer - Acknowledge the issue and fix it

 

[lucusloc]

• What gun? (Make, model, caliber): Marlin, Camp-45, .45 ACP
• What about it was promising to you? Light, handy carbine, with traditional styling, and fed from standard 1911 magazines.
• What about it fell short of your expectations? Cracking stocks. Bolt hold-open issues. Buffers that dry out/crack. Weak factory springs.
• If you were the manufacturer, what would you have done differently with it? None of those issues couldn't be resolved with a little work. Threaded barrel would be nice. Not likely to ever happen now though. (Wife has a carbine similar in concept, so imagine it could be done.)

There are a ton of simple blowback 45. carbines on the market right now. Nothing as classic looking as the Marlin, but definitely stuff that replicates the functionality (even exceeds it, in the cases where they add a delay to the direct blowback). I am sure there are people here who can make some reccomendations (and I can even make a few based on stuff I have in other cartridges, but which they make in .45 as well).

 

[CountryGent]

(let alone a whole line of big bore semi-auto carbines in classic cartridges).

That would be neato.

 

[lucusloc]

That would be neato.

IKR?! There is a market for that, and it is probably quite large, judging from my conversations on the topic whenever I bring out the 44 carbine. A modern, classic looking carbine that can accommodate all the big bore straight walled cartridge out there would not be that hard to design (it would mostly be cribbing notes from already existing designs). the only real question is cost. I had someone knowledgeable look over my 44 carbine and estimate that if you kept it original it would cost well over $2k today to machine and manufacture, which would pretty much kill any relevance it would have in the market. If you want success you would have to get it down to the ~$800 range, if not lower. That may be the sticking point; too much cost to redesign a robust system than can handle what people would throw at it.

 

[CountryGent]

@lucusloc I'd be hip. Really wish the Ruger Deerfield wasn't discontinued. Imagine one on steroids in .500 Magnum.

 

[lucusloc]

@lucusloc I'd be hip. Really wish the Ruger Deerfield wasn't discontinued. Imagine one on steroids in .500 Magnum.

I got drool in my keyboard and I blame you.

 

[bradsteen]

The Taurus CT9. They introduced it at a time where PCCs hadn't quite taken off yet, and had the opportunity to do something really neat with it. It had great bones - ambidextrous controls, decent trigger, some AR lower part compatibility, etc.

They could have designed it to take their own pistol mags, or UZI mags, or any other mag with broad market penetration and availability of capacities higher than 10rds. They could have released it as a pistol with an 8" barrel and picatinny rail endplate. They could have designed it to be compatible with AR or HK stocks. They could have released it and then manufactured proprietary US-made 30rd mags. Heck, they could've even partnered with another company to supply US-made aftermarket parts and mags if they didn't want to take on the liability of manufacturing it themselves.

But they didn't. Instead they went the proprietary mag route, only released 10rd mags for it, designed it so that no existing aftermarket accessories would fit it, and did absolutely nothing to develop a supply of US parts for 922R compliance. Oh, and the thumbhole stock they designed for it had a ridiculous 15" LOP. For all these reasons, it was a massive flop. And Taurus hasn't re-entered the PCC market since.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

The 1911 pistol....
A great design and an excellent cartridge designed for it as well.
I'd just tell that J.M. Browning fella to make the frame out of plastic...and have some sort of internal hammer....
Kidding here....

On a serious note...
I kinda liked that Remington 760 rifle that was chambered in 5.56 and used AR15 magazines.
Neat idea...just came out at the wrong time.
Andy

 

[lucusloc]

The 1911 pistol....
A great design and an excellent cartridge designed for it as well.
I'd just tell that J.M. Browning fella to make the frame out of plastic...and have some sort of internal hammer....
Kidding here....

On a serious note...
I kinda liked that Remington 760 rifle that was chambered in 5.56 and used AR15 magazines.
Neat idea...just came out at the wrong time.
Andy

I love new designs that use old standard equipment like magazines and cartridges. We have a ton of really well developed magazines, superb accessory attachment systems and cartridges that can fill just about every niche possible. If your new proprietary magazine/attachment system/cartridge does not bring something absolutely fantastic to the table I am finding myself less and less interested.

Ok, I lied about the cartridges, I will buy whatever you are selling. But I am extremely skeptical of new magazine formats for existing cartridges. You have a new .223 rifle with some hilariously fun new action? I'll probably love it, but I may skip it entirely if it does not use STANAG mags, unless it has a really good reason not to. Ditto for the plethora of PCCs out there; better use mags from a major manufacturer, because I am not so willing to pay top dollar for a proprietary mag that only you make when I can get one of dozens of PCCs that use mags I already have in bulk. Hell, I still get salty because the pistol space has not figured out how to standardize magazines across manufacturers, they all design the same basic thing over and over, with just enough differences to be incompatible.

And don't get me started on how happy I am that M-LOK finally won the accessory format wars. . .

 

[bradsteen]

I love new designs that use old standard equipment like magazines and cartridges. We have a ton of really well developed magazines, superb accessory attachment systems and cartridges that can fill just about every niche possible. If your new proprietary magazine/attachment system/cartridge does not bring something absolutely fantastic to the table I am finding myself less and less interested.

Ok, I lied about the cartridges, I will buy whatever you are selling. But I am extremely skeptical of new magazine formats for existing cartridges. You have a new .223 rifle with some hilariously fun new action? I'll probably love it, but I may skip it entirely if it does not use STANAG mags, unless it has a really good reason not to. Ditto for the plethora of PCCs out there; better use mags from a major manufacturer, because I am not so willing to pay top dollar for a proprietary mag that only you make when I can get one of dozens of PCCs that use mags I already have in bulk. Hell, I still get salty because the pistol space has not figured out how to standardize magazines across manufacturers, they all design the same basic thing over and over, with just enough differences to be incompatible.

And don't get me started on how happy I am that M-LOK finally won the accessory format wars. . .

+1 on the standard mags thing. Freaking hate it when companies do proprietary mags. Speaking of, I was just doing research on the Browning BAR and Remington 750/760... I had no idea mags for those were so expensive! It's absolutely insane!

 

[RVTECH]

• What gun? (Make, model, caliber) Kel Tec S2K 9mm
• What about it was promising to you? A compact carbine with a simple, but effective folding design that fit me 'ergonomically' and I could shoot it well.
• What about it fell short of your expectations? Its incredibly bizarre construction that made disassembly (and re-assembly) literally the most difficult of ALL guns I have ever owned. The cheap plastic exterior parts were obviously not going to last long either. And let not forget the epoxied in barrel that later had a 'fix' designed to drill and pin in in.
• If you were the manufacturer, what would you have done differently with it? Well, I have never looked at one but the Gen 2 version appeared to correct a lot of these issues HOWEVER if I were the engineer I would have overlooked the 'lightest carbine' part and made it a little more robust, maybe a bit larger and at a minimum exterior parts made out of aluminum rather than plastic.

 

[lucusloc]

+1 on the standard mags thing. Freaking hate it when companies do proprietary mags. Speaking of, I was just doing research on the Browning BAR and Remington 750/760... I had no idea mags for those were so expensive! It's absolutely insane!

Yep, I have a 740 and a 760 and only a handful of mags between them. Did you know they made 10 and 20 round factory mags for them? You'll probably need to leverage your home equity to get one, if you can ever find it for sale. Even the standard factory 5 round mags go for nearly a full Benjamin when you can find them, and they are "not that rare" by comparison.

There are now some Chinese imports on the market, both 5 and 10 round versions. They look like cheap plastic and the thinnest possible sheet metal, and yet still sell for $25-30 each. And with zero trustworthy reviews I am not sure I would consider that a bargain exactly, as that is still a decent bit to spend on a complete gamble. Hopefully someone with a decent reputation does a review on them soon, because I would not mind getting a few to properly stock up on the inventory.

 

[dangerranger60]

I thought this thread was going to be about a deep look across a smoke-filled room! DR

 

[red442joe]

Tagged

Joe

 

[Stomper]

The one gun ahead of its time, and not enough technology support to bring it to market…


The Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40-watt range, of course!






C'mon… SOMEONE was going to say it, eventually.