Military Contracts: complete rifles or enlisted gunsmiths or make them in-house

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I guess what I am trying to ask is if it would be best if the military enlisted gunsmiths (or trained them) VERSUS making contracts with certain gun manufactures (Colt) OR make them in-house? In my little understanding is that companies like: R-Guns, LMT, DPMS, and many more I may not know about, were 'parts' companies that supplied DOJ and military before becoming complete gun manufacturers. It seems to me that the military is overzealous with its spending on small arms. ARs are easy to build and if they are going to use polymer framed guns, they too, are easy to build. Whoever does the funding approval needs to hire an accountant to figure out some savings for small arms.

Anyone in agreement OR disagreement?
 

nwslopoke

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I don't know if the government has ever been too concerned over spending money. I believe contracts and subcontractors allow built in deniability when X company's guns end up where they aren't supposed to be.

Is it true the government does custom ammo loads for special forces in 29 Palms, Ca?
 
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I guess what I am trying to ask is if it would be best if the military enlisted gunsmiths (or trained them) VERSUS making contracts with certain gun manufactures (Colt) OR make them in-house? In my little understanding is that companies like: R-Guns, LMT, DPMS, and many more I may not know about, were 'parts' companies that supplied DOJ and military before becoming complete gun manufacturers. It seems to me that the military is overzealous with its spending on small arms. ARs are easy to build and if they are going to use polymer framed guns, they too, are easy to build. Whoever does the funding approval needs to hire an accountant to figure out some savings for small arms.

Anyone in agreement OR disagreement?
Theres the armorer type MOS already in the military roles... then there's the various US Arsenals, such as Lake City Ammunition for example..

Edit. Following MOS
USMC 2111 small arms repairer/technican
USAF 3P051B Combat Arms Training and Maintenance (CATM)
US Army 92Y Unit Supply Specialist, and 91F Small Arms Repairer
 
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As far as I am aware of, the contracts usually include enough spare parts and support items to last say 10 years of routine use for example.. (depends on whats "routine") so its not quite on a per gun basis, but in batches and so forth. Also there is a Congressional law somewhere that says the arms acquired by the US military has to be made in the US, with some exceptions (foreign arms allowed when overseas with certain occupations.. or for cross training, maybe?)

Having the US federal government get into manufacturing of anything is a terrible idea :eek: look at how they're manufacturing crisises and fear mongering! :eek: Even the money is not made by the Federal Government but U.S. Mint is still around.. :eek:
 
It's happened before, WW-1 and 2 saw many contractors taking on production of ether full weapons or components, even today, a lot of stuff gets outsourced, a lot of that is Forging, or specific types of machine prepossess or casting capabilities! Remington NEVER made a single barrel, those came from the Spanish barrel foundries of Bergera, ALL Military M-16/M-4 upper and lowers were ALL made by STAG, and even Colt only made about 1 out of every 8 1911's, including the slides and frames, yet they carried the Colt Prancing Pony! Diversification is and has always been a well practiced system to insure a continuous uninterrupted supply of arms and ammunition!
 
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Typically:
"GO with the LOWEST BIDDER"...
That way there is more BOOT to spread to the LIFERS involved..

A Complete NEW Tanker helmet vs the Complete repair kit for one is a good example:

Cmplt Helmet categorized as
"Recoverable, Non Expendible".
Meaning It was to be repaired &
the costs held "Of Record"
IE: shows up n Accounting records...


The Cmplt Kit:
NonRecoverable, Expendible..
Meaning Order As MANY AS YOU WANT because Nobody gives a Shyte...

Commo guys made really good ear phones for stereo listening..

The microphone snapped on & plugged in like you would a Boom Box...
They got stepped on & snagged as Souveniers

The Maintenance Allocation Chart listed tge Mics as DIRECT SUPPORT MAINTENANCE....

When ever ordered at Co or Battalion level the Requisition was kicked back, so Commo guys just ordered the cmplt kits...

On the MAChart that replacement was Direct Support level...

Cmplt Kit: $249.00.
CMPLT Helmet: $89.00

PURSUING THIS showed that the Procurement Officer lining up the Contract had shortly after retired & went to work for that Manufacturer..

Same with a small Idler wheel seal for an M114 Personnel Carrier...

In both cases. After doing the research & the necessary reporting, some asshat LTC got a $1500.00 Bonus....

Both cases, and NADA for the GI doing the research & reporting...

BTW, that was 1968 Dollars, so do the math...

As to Firearms Procurement...

Just find a US Marine who went up Hill 881 during TET and if LUCKY got to fire off 30 rnds before throwing that Mattel Toy away..
I would like to think times have improved,
& Maybe they have, but if there are still mindless Jellyfish like MadDog et all,

Then it might turn out that That BS WAR Plus all since will
COME HOME TO ROOST...

And I agree w the OP in that THAT SWAMP Needs Eradicating and fixing as well...
 
OP
T
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Well, I was unsure how to word my question. Looks like some understood me well. Was not sure this would be a lost cause. I always felt like the gun people know more about small arms than the ones writing up contracts.
Thanks
 
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Some years ago I read a book "A SNIPER IN THE ARIZONA" abt an "In Country" Training course run by the Marines.
It is a good read, and the Author's Unit Experienced the Same Failure of the New M16s after
they had to turn in their beloved M 14s.
This failure resulted in a Representative from DotGuv listening to Soldiers and making up BS Excuses,
and the Author Explained in Detail the Various Problems w/ the Wherefores and the Whys and gave solid recomendations as solutions..

IIRC what Was Obvious was that the DotGuv Dooder was ABSOLUTELY CLUELESS..

Seems like Same Shyte, 52 yrs later..
 
I don't know much about the requisitions process for small arms but can tell you a bit of governmental spending habits.

TL;DR: They don't give a rat's about saving money.

In a normal, for profit company, saving money from the budget is just as important as making more revenue than planned. Many companies tie employee bonuses to the financial position of the company as a whole: if the company makes 110% of its expected profit, then your bonus is 110% as well.

There's two basic ways to do this: sell more than expected and/or cut costs where possible. There is an incentive at the company level and individual employee level for figuring out how to stretch a dollar for the company.

Governments, on the other hand, are not for profit. They don't sell. They estimate what sort of money they'll have available and then that gets divvied up. Let's say that you need $10M for your department (estimated). But, throughout the year, you reorg to make better use of people, switch supplies to save some coin, and end up spending $9M throughout the year. Guess what the guy holding the purse strings is going to give you next year...if you thought $10M, you're wrong.

So, you have a choice - you can save "the government" $1M for no benefit whatsoever to you or your department and then be forced to live with less next year (which hurts your expansion plans, ability to hire, really screws you up if your suppliers raise prices, etc)...or you can figure out how to spend that "saved" $1M so that it looks like your department used 100% of budget, thus giving you a reason to ask for that (or more) next year.

There's no incentive structure in the way the government currently takes in and allots money. It's a much bigger problem then just small arms for the military.
 

WAYNO

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Okay. I'll play the devils advocate on this, and/or for futher discussion...

I have a couple different Ordnance MOS's. I have been to DS, GS, and Depot facilities, and have attended a couple schools at Aberdeen Proving Ground. The logistics of supporting the weapons used throughout the military is unbelievably huge. In addition to that, think of all the Jeeps, the HumVees, the desks, the file cabinets, the clinics, the Aircraft Control Towers, the ships, the helicopters... the examples are endless. They all require a support system. Maintenance, supply, transportation, training, MOS testing, it is endless, and if a person hasn't experienced it, there is no way to imagine it.

If we now have Ordnance folks assembling weapons from parts, where will these facilities be housed? Will each of the ten divisions have their own assemblers? Will the assemblers work for a Corps, or for an Army? (Groups of Divisions and groups of Corps'). And when a Division changes locations or is split up, do the assemblers move with the Division? And stand-alone Brigades and Battle Groups, do they have assemblers or do they have to find a Division or Garrison to get their weapons.

And assembling weapons from parts, how far into it do we go? Are these fellers only doing simple assembly, or are they machining parts, staking parts, and pressing parts? How about Parkerizing? Who's gonna do that?

And then, the many thousands of civilians that work for the weapons manufacturers, they'll go on unemployment because a Private will now be assembling the new weapons. How many more Private's will we have to hire? And when the world blows up and these Private's are called away to defend a perimeter, who's building the weapons?

These examples may seem far-fetched. They are not. The logistics now are so cumbersome, unmanageable and extensive, adding more logistics to build weapons could make the whole system finally tip over.

And while we've got Private's building weapons to save money, how many high dollar General's will now be needed to oversee all this?

And since building our own weapons was easy, we may as well start building our own wheeled vehicles, and aircraft, and ships.

This is only food for thought.:s0060: I don't expect to change anybody's mind.


.



.
 
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I was in a "Hold Over" Company for 14 weeks at Ft Leonard Wood.
I saw the CO 1 time. Same w the Only Sgt.

The XO was there every day, a former Supply Sgt. He went thru OCS for a reason..
The back room was full of Trade Fodder...
Mattress covers chock full of OGs.. Good Wool cold weather clothes.
Huge cans of Coffee.
Etc. He was more than a Day Trader..;)

Abt twice a week he chucked a 20 gal Milk container into his station wagon.
He had a flock of kids..
13 New lawn mowers issued to the Co, but only 2 still there & in the boxes.
No grass to mow anywhere.

The Co Clerk, also a Hold Over, had an MBA.
He had come several months earlier with 4 or 5 other guys, all Advanced degree College Grads.
Those guys were married, lived off post, and would ETS in abt 3 months...

Back then it was Rampant the Plunder going on.. Thanks to LBJ & other Deep Staters America got LOOTED by Ike's warning, and 58,220 Americans are on a Black Granite Wall, and some 2 million Vietnamese Perished.
 
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I don't know much about the requisitions process for small arms but can tell you a bit of governmental spending habits.

TL;DR: They don't give a rat's about saving money.

In a normal, for profit company, saving money from the budget is just as important as making more revenue than planned. Many companies tie employee bonuses to the financial position of the company as a whole: if the company makes 110% of its expected profit, then your bonus is 110% as well.

There's two basic ways to do this: sell more than expected and/or cut costs where possible. There is an incentive at the company level and individual employee level for figuring out how to stretch a dollar for the company.

Governments, on the other hand, are not for profit. They don't sell. They estimate what sort of money they'll have available and then that gets divvied up. Let's say that you need $10M for your department (estimated). But, throughout the year, you reorg to make better use of people, switch supplies to save some coin, and end up spending $9M throughout the year. Guess what the guy holding the purse strings is going to give you next year...if you thought $10M, you're wrong.

So, you have a choice - you can save "the government" $1M for no benefit whatsoever to you or your department and then be forced to live with less next year (which hurts your expansion plans, ability to hire, really screws you up if your suppliers raise prices, etc)...or you can figure out how to spend that "saved" $1M so that it looks like your department used 100% of budget, thus giving you a reason to ask for that (or more) next year.

There's no incentive structure in the way the government currently takes in and allots money. It's a much bigger problem then just small arms for the military.
That’s just government stupidity 101 apparently, school district also works that way. Schools get allotted some money and if it isn’t spent, it’s deemed not needed and taken back, it encourages misuse.
 
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And WAYNO in so many ways you are spot on..
IF Government Contracts were not used as Cash Cows, all this could be remedied.

Maybe in the near future we can see
ACCOUNTABILITY applied...
Throw the guilty in jail..
Audit the FED, the Seize it for FRAUD, and include ALL THE ASSETS OF THE 6 BANKING FAMILIES THAT OWN IT...

US TREAS wouldn't need to tax a dime for a very long time..

Just bored & Ranting...;)
 
That’s just government stupidity 101 apparently, school district also works that way. Schools get allotted some money and if it isn’t spent, it’s deemed not needed and taken back, it encourages misuse.
Indeed. Yet another reason that government should have its grubby paws in as few places as possible, education most certainly being one of those we should keep far, far away from them.
 

Flymph

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Frankly, it's cheaper to contract out.
Also, the government can't legally create a business where a sufficient market already exists.
I'll admit I like the idea of cost effective production done by the government, but I know it's a pipe dream.
 
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I remember the spend ex's on the ranges every sept or supply would order the dumbest bubblegum to be at zero balance by the end of sept.


anyhoo you want to see the madness behind the mayhem this is the solicitation for the M4A1 and accessories late 2016 IIRC you can google it and read through it.
1593005079620.png

i used it as a source when i would teach SDM to service members as it gave accuracy requirements for the M4s that service members were using in lieu of SPR's for this tasking. reinforce fundamentals was the jist as accuracy was stacked against you before you pulled the trigger. from the solicitation for those who are curious about accuracy:

Accuracy/Dispersion (Precision): The system accuracy for the M4A1+ shall be 5”mean radius at 300 meters throughout barrel life (required) and shall be 5”extreme spread at 300 meters throughout barrel life with 9” probability (desired) and shall be 10”extreme spread at 600 meters throughout barrel life with 9” probability (desired).
 

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