Left has lost gun control debate

[Blitzkrieg]

I'll go on record as opposing your ideals. Very much so, in fact. What do they put in the drinking water up there in Portland?

Apparently it affects their ability to read and comprehend what has already been posted in this thread ound:

 

[cybersomatix]

Anarchists talk about anarchy as if they would survive it. Only the best, strongest, smartest, most dangerous and those they choose to defend and support will survive anarchy. I will oppose with all my abilities any system or person who thinks the weakest (Gmas, little children, etc) are fair game because that person wishes "total freedom" at the expense of the helpless. Anarchy is (temporary because it will never last) total freedom, including the freedom to shoot anarchists. Right now that is illegal. Just something for you to ponder..

Anarchy is not total freedom for the very reason you pointed out above. No one on this planet is truly 100% free.

More to the point, it is a supreme mischaracterization of what it is that I espouse (of which I have said very little, thus far) to suggest that I'm pushing social darwinism. I too will "oppose with all my abilities any system or person who thinks the weakest are fair game because that person wishes "total freedom" at the expense of the helpless." Here our values overlap. I presume you believe in limited government. If so, then there is another area in which our values overlap (except that I probably believe in a few more limits to government than you). As for shooting anarchists, when it comes down to it, many of us are quite capable of shooting back.

 

[cybersomatix]

I'll go on record as opposing your ideals. Very much so, in fact.

What ideals would those be? For the purposes of this forum, the only ideal I've pointed out has been the right of individuals to bear arms and the right to self defense. Everything else has been conjecture based solely on how I describe myself politically.

I'm having fun hearing from other people what "my ideals" are... but so far I've only heard suggestions which have been pretty wide of the mark.

 

[rufus]

What ideals would those be?

☑ Communist
☑ Anarchist​

 

[MikeE]

Communism murdered up to 100 million Russians and Ukranians and maintained a system of virtual slavery, gulags and abject poverty for the masses, completely failing to make anything that worked except for some military weapons, while the commissars were fat and sassy

Neither happened to Germans in Germany.. they went from the iron booted rule of the international banksters and the overlordship of the Western powers (after the crushing WW1 Versailles sanctions) and hauling wheelbarrows full of money to buy a loaf of bread to full employment and a thriving economy and the most amazing inventions and science..in less than 12 years. From Television to low level unmanned space travel, the jet engine and very near to the nuclear bomb. Whatever you think of the pre/WW2 era German politics or other actions attributed to them by the victors who wrote the history books, the economic and accomplishment aspects could not be more stark between the two systems

I keep coming back to this interesting quote. And this next one by the same poster:

"I have chatted with many from former communist countries and I have read extensively of the true origins of the so-called "Russian" Revolution (it was a jewish communist led revolution actually, and after it succeeded 90% of the commisars were jewish, and Christians were murdered by the millions) ."

So tell me once more, my conservative friends, how there is absolutely NO CONNECTION between the Nazi's of yesteryear and the US right wing today. If there is NO CONNECTION, I'd like to hear someone from the right reject these pro-nazi anti semitic remarks.

 

[bugeye]

The thread is getting way too abstract for me, concrete issues are general enough let alone fuzzy isms.
I find lots wrong with the concept of communism, but I find lots wrong with the concept of capitalism.
History has shown that large communist states become authoritarian as the fearless leader or their party are always making decisions for the 'good' of the public.
Thoreau, who might have been defined as an anarchist commie, said "If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life."
Capitalism has rung up it's own death toll, it has such amazing tributes as the slave trade, the colonial wars, both world wars, and at present the force that is attempting to preserve authoritarian systems in the middle east where capitalism props up monarchs, and even theocratic despots (Iran). Authoritarian capitalisms are very common as the very nature of this system has acted to concentrate wealth in the hands of a few since recorded history. Of course these rich folks have a vested interest in keeping their wealth, go figure, so they have come with lots of ways to protect it.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Anarchy is not total freedom for the very reason you pointed out above. No one on this planet is truly 100% free.

More to the point, it is a supreme mischaracterization of what it is that I espouse (of which I have said very little, thus far) to suggest that I'm pushing social darwinism. I too will "oppose with all my abilities any system or person who thinks the weakest are fair game because that person wishes "total freedom" at the expense of the helpless." Here our values overlap. I presume you believe in limited government. If so, then there is another area in which our values overlap (except that I probably believe in a few more limits to government than you). As for shooting anarchists, when it comes down to it, many of us are quite capable of shooting back.

Please note you are (thankfully) outnumbered 100 to 1 by those who believe in the founding documents of this nation

Just because someone is pro gun ownership does not make them my buddy. If their reason for gun ownership is to use them to oppose the Republic (as it was created, it's virtually dead today) then they are domestic enemies

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I keep coming back to this interesting quote. And this next one by the same poster:

"I have chatted with many from former communist countries and I have read extensively of the true origins of the so-called "Russian" Revolution (it was a jewish communist led revolution actually, and after it succeeded 90% of the commisars were jewish, and Christians were murdered by the millions) ."

So tell me once more, my conservative friends, how there is absolutely NO CONNECTION between the Nazi's of yesteryear and the US right wing today. If there is NO CONNECTION, I'd like to hear someone from the right reject these pro-nazi anti semitic remarks.

Your ad hominem attack on my factual statement does not alter the validity

Marx, Trotsky, Lenin and 90 % of the subsequent commissars were jewish and anti Christian. The so called "Russian Revolution" was financed by the US jewish Schiff family and several others. About 300 of them traveled from all over the world to Germany where they took a closed box car all the way to Moscow to oversee the revolution. They murdered the Christian Czar and his family and began a decades long reign of terror. The truth is not right or left, it is truth. Name calling is not an argument, nor will it work any more as a weapon of censorship



Karl Marx was jewish, father was a rabbi

From wikipedia:

Karl Heinrich Marx was born on 5 May 1818 at 664 Brückergasse in Trier, a town located in the Kingdom of Prussia's Province of the Lower Rhine.[10] His ancestry was Jewish, with his paternal line having supplied the rabbis of Trier since 1723, a role that had been taken up by his own grandfather, Merier Halevi Marx. His maternal line was also Jewish; his maternal grandfather was a Dutch rabbi.

The info is out there for those who want to know the truth

 

[cybersomatix]

☑ Communist
☑ Anarchist​

Fair enough.

 

[cybersomatix]

The thread is getting way too abstract for me, concrete issues are general enough let alone fuzzy isms.

Abstraction is far too decadent for a something so utilitarian as a firearms board. Subsequently, I'm not particularly interested in explaining my politics here... folks can feel free to disagree with me if they'd like... I don't particularly care... my only point has been to say that plenty of us on the left support the right to bear arms (and a few of us even support the repeal of all of the federal firearms laws). I don't post here to debate why I think the other side is wrong and my own is right. I post here because I like firearms and I live in the NW.

I find lots wrong with the concept of communism, but I find lots wrong with the concept of capitalism.
History has shown that large communist states become authoritarian as the fearless leader or their party are always making decisions for the 'good' of the public.
Thoreau, who might have been defined as an anarchist commie, said "If I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life."
Capitalism has rung up it's own death toll, it has such amazing tributes as the slave trade, the colonial wars, both world wars, and at present the force that is attempting to preserve authoritarian systems in the middle east where capitalism props up monarchs, and even theocratic despots (Iran). Authoritarian capitalisms are very common as the very nature of this system has acted to concentrate wealth in the hands of a few since recorded history. Of course these rich folks have a vested interest in keeping their wealth, go figure, so they have come with lots of ways to protect it.

I agree with 100% of what you just said... Authoritarianism is the bigger problem than economic models... I don't even really have a problem with the market system (a lot of anarchists and communists would obviously disagree with me on my very open to compromise position on this issue), but I find that a lot of the institutions which it's present application engenders (from the WTO, IMF & World Bank, to the Federal Reserve system) are problematic for human liberty and should at the very least be rethought.

 

[Grunwald]

I keep coming back to this interesting quote. And this next one by the same poster:

"I have chatted with many from former communist countries and I have read extensively of the true origins of the so-called "Russian" Revolution (it was a jewish communist led revolution actually, and after it succeeded 90% of the commisars were jewish, and Christians were murdered by the millions) ."

So tell me once more, my conservative friends, how there is absolutely NO CONNECTION between the Nazi's of yesteryear and the US right wing today. If there is NO CONNECTION, I'd like to hear someone from the right reject these pro-nazi anti semitic remarks.

That's easy
Nazi - totalitarian
US right wing today - limited government

What I will give you is that there are 2 divisions of the "US right wing today" that would use government to push their agenda,
1) Christian coalition - **** just look at the "In God We Trust" on the money or sticking "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance (which was not originally there). I know a lot of these use right wing politics simply as a vehicle to try to get their religious agenda pushed though, without really sharing any other ideal with the rest of their political allies.
2) Lot of pro-business types whose loyalty lies with the business before the country. Most of these are snakes in the grass type that would cheat and steal if they could get away with it.

 

[cybersomatix]

Please note you are (thankfully) outnumbered 100 to 1 by those who believe in the founding documents of this nation

Just because someone is pro gun ownership does not make them my buddy. If their reason for gun ownership is to use them to oppose the Republic (as it was created, it's virtually dead today) then they are domestic enemies

I never said we were buddies. My reason for gun ownership is to defend myself from folks who would presume me an enemy simply because I think differently from them.

 

[MikeE]

Communism murdered up to 100 million Russians and Ukranians and maintained a system of virtual slavery, gulags and abject poverty for the masses, completely failing to make anything that worked except for some military weapons, while the commissars were fat and sassy

Neither happened to Germans in Germany.. they went from the iron booted rule of the international banksters and the overlordship of the Western powers (after the crushing WW1 Versailles sanctions) and hauling wheelbarrows full of money to buy a loaf of bread to full employment and a thriving economy and the most amazing inventions and science..in less than 12 years. From Television to low level unmanned space travel, the jet engine and very near to the nuclear bomb. Whatever you think of the pre/WW2 era German politics or other actions attributed to them by the victors who wrote the history books, the economic and accomplishment aspects could not be more stark between the two systems

That's easy
Nazi - totalitarian
US right wing today - limited government

What I will give you is that there are 2 divisions of the "US right wing today" that would use government to push their agenda,
1) Christian coalition - **** just look at the "In God We Trust" on the money or sticking "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance (which was not originally there). I know a lot of these use right wing politics simply as a vehicle to try to get their religious agenda pushed though, without really sharing any other ideal with the rest of their political allies.
2) Lot of pro-business types whose loyalty lies with the business before the country. Most of these are snakes in the grass type that would cheat and steal if they could get away with it.

Thanks. That's cogent.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I never said we were buddies. My reason for gun ownership is to defend myself from folks who would presume me an enemy simply because I think differently from them.

But what will you do with that different viewpoint? Threaten the (original) Republic I will defend to the death? Think about this..

 

[Blitzkrieg]

One more thing.. Capitalism is NOT Free Enterprise. I am not a capitalist

Capitalism is the old Golden Rule.. he who has the gold makes the rules

Free Enterprise is what Henry Ford and John M Browning would understand as economic freedom and the potential for an excellent man with a good work ethic to "make good"

 

[WhyteCheddar]

You can put all the lipstick on the pig of communism you want. It still rolls around in its own excrement and stinks to high heaven.
It is beyond rational thought to even begin to consider it positive for the human condition in the slightest way.

 

[cybersomatix]

But what will you do with that different viewpoint? Threaten the (original) Republic I will defend to the death? Think about this..

I have thought about it quite a bit. I tend toward the belief that to the degree that the republic works fairly well for most of its people, there is no need to challenge it. To the degree that it doesn't there is room for improvement. I don't care to threaten the republic on the battlefield of blood and iron if it can be improved upon via the battlefield of ideas. I do, however, believe that those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. That said, I have absolutely no interest in jumping the gun, as it were. If the system falls apart, it should do so through its own merit... then and only then can any intentionally revolutionary change hold any legitimate weight. Until then, don't threaten myself, my family or my friends (just as I would extend the same courtesy to you) and everything should remain relatively copasetic between us.

 

[Smoke It]

I would agree if the administration had not just put an executive order in place today to stop the re-importation of 833,000 m1 garands and carbines from being re-imported back into the united states from South Korea. The 2nd amendment is not being chipped at anymore by law and debate but with the stroke of a pen.

I feel much the same ,But we all need to keep our eyes wide open and this clown we have in the office is simply a bobble head , and with any luck will be gone in 2 long years

 

[Just Jim]

As for shooting anarchists, when it comes down to it, many of us are quite capable of shooting back.

Do the math

jj

 

[bugeye]

But what will you do with that different viewpoint? Threaten the (original) Republic I will defend to the death? Think about this..

Seems to me anyone who is willing to die for an 'ism' is just an underacheiving suicide anyway.
In this case the 'ism' in question is a fuzzy, personal, and somewhat religious concept of a republic set down in a 12 page, much argued about document, that was ratified in 1786.
Seems like you have joined Monte Python on the quest for the Holy Grail.

Nee!