leaving lube on cases

[Guilty]

Running my rifle brass through the thumler's tumbler after lubing is a part of my reloading process. I have the tools and it is no big deal for me to perform the extra step to have clean brass to work with, take to the range and for storage.

 

[ma96782]

Crohnos01,

I mostly agree with you about the WARNINGs in the books NOT to tumble loaded rounds. But, say it this way....the factory loaded ammo makers do it....if only to get the final shine. Ugly looking ammo doesn't tend to sell well.

So, maybe the WARNING should be.....tumbling for a short/limited amount of time may/might be OK.

Anyway....there were big arguments on another web sight.

The pro tumbler/vibrator crowd likes point to a "study" done by another member (on that sight) where he tumbled loaded rounds (after x hours and days) and inspected the powder afterwards under a microscope. Sounds like science, Rrrrright. So, based on his limited tests....he concluded that it's SAFE. So, the crowd concluded that it's ALL A MYTH about tumbling rounds after they are loaded. A lot of them said that it's safe (as in 100% safe) and that no one ever has been injured.

Sorry. But, as I pointed out there was an internet post (I provided the link) where a pistol cartridge (reloads for police work) had a terrible result after tumbling loaded cartridges. The remaining rounds were pulled down and the other cartridges showed degradation with the powder (a well known foreign brand).

So....could it be said universally that it's a MYTH?

I don't think so.

Besides, you wanna trust and fire some tumbled (perhaps for hours or days) previously pukey looking loaded rounds, made in some military arsenal, in some bum-f@#^* country, say over 70 years ago, just to make them look shiny like new?

I'll pass. Or, if I'm desperate.....I'd wipe them down.

That all being said......I wouldn't call it a MYTH. I'd go so far as to say, that maybe for a short/limited time, you might be OK with the practice. Maybe.

Mind you......that I suspect that the major companies that publish those warnings have a reason to say what they did. And, they probably have REAL SCIENTIST working for them. Then again, maybe the LIABILITY LAWYERS have won again?

Aloha, Mark

PS.....figure this. Black powder......larger grained powder burns slower then the finer grain powders. What if a tumbler/vibrator broke down the grain size of BP? Well, maybe the warning was originally based on this? Maybe, the same could happen with smokeless powder? Not to mention, "special coatings" on the powder grains, Thus, affecting the burn rate, pressure, velocity, safety, etc.....

 

[Caveman Jim]

Lol, yes. A/the spent primer.. then I put it/them in the machine and load them.

I was hoping that was what you meant.

 

[Crohnos01]

Crohnos01,

I mostly agree with you about the WARNINGs in the books NOT to tumble loaded rounds. But, say it this way....the factory loaded ammo makers do it....if only to get the final shine. Ugly looking ammo doesn't tend to sell well.

So, maybe the WARNING should be.....tumbling for a short/limited amount of time may/might be OK.

Anyway....there were big arguments on another web sight.

The pro tumbler/vibrator crowd likes point to a "study" done by another member (on that sight) where he tumbled loaded rounds (after x hours and days) and inspected the powder afterwards under a microscope. Sounds like science, Rrrrright. So, based on his limited tests....he concluded that it's SAFE. So, the crowd concluded that it's ALL A MYTH about tumbling rounds after they are loaded. A lot of them said that it's safe (as in 100% safe) and that no one ever has been injured.

Sorry. But, as I pointed out there was an internet post (I provided the link) where a pistol cartridge (reloads for police work) had a terrible result after tumbling loaded cartridges. The remaining rounds were pulled down and the other cartridges showed degradation with the powder (a well known foreign brand).

So....could it be said universally that it's a MYTH?

I don't think so.

Besides, you wanna trust and fire some tumbled (perhaps for hours or days) previously pukey looking loaded rounds, made in some military arsenal, in some bum-f@#^* country, say over 70 years ago, just to make them look shiny like new?

I'll pass. Or, if I'm desperate.....I'd wipe them down.

That all being said......I wouldn't call it a MYTH. I'd go so far as to say, that maybe for a short/limited time, you might be OK with the practice. Maybe.

Mind you......that I suspect that the major companies that publish those warnings have a reason to say what they did. And, they probably have REAL SCIENTIST working for them. Then again, maybe the LIABILITY LAWYERS have won again?

Aloha, Mark

PS.....figure this. Black powder......larger grained powder burns slower then the finer grain powders. What if a tumbler/vibrator broke down the grain size of BP? Well, maybe the warning was originally based on this? Maybe, the same could happen with smokeless powder? Not to mention, "special coatings" on the powder grains, Thus, affecting the burn rate, pressure, velocity, safety, etc.....

I get that the liability lawyers probably influence the writing in load manuals regarding tumbling of finished rounds. However, if you think about it, the potential for degredation of powder in a tumbler easily makes sense. There may be conditions and circumstances where you can get away with it, but it kind of reminds me of the deal with gasoline. Under the correct conditions, you can actually quench a lit match with gasoline... does that mean I am going to do it? Not only no, but HELL no! I figure I will probably be burning in hell soon enough, so no sense rushing the situation.

I feel tumbling loaded rounds are kind of a similar gamble... could you do it and get away with it ? Maybe... perhaps even probably, but I will be standing a LONG ways off waiting to dial 911 if someone wants to try it.

 

[Lilhigbee]

Chapter and verse from the instructions you get with a Dillon case tumbler;

Tumbling Loaded Ammo
Some people have taken to tumbling their loaded ammunition to remove the lube on the brass cases. While this does work, remember not to exceed 15-20 minutes of tumbling time. We have found that lead bullets or exposed lead on jacketed bullets becomes dirty black and is not easily cleaned.

If a liability-conscious company is willing to acknowledge that it is okay to tumble loaded ammo, I'm not going to worry about it.

 

[Crohnos01]

Well, apparently I am just getting too old for the glamor of flirting with danger. I remember reading, I think it was a Sierra manual, strict cautions against tumbling completed ammo... But what would they know about it, right? Like I said above, you probably can get away with it... So, call me a wimp, a worry wart, etc.... Doesn't matter... Years ago my flight instructor told me the old adage about there being old pilots and bold pilots, but no old bold pilots. I guess I am just overly cautious.... but on the other hand, I am also old...maybe not bold though

 

[MrMillspecer]

I use Hornady One Shot on my .223 and nothing on the .45. I just use a real light coat spraying from the base towards the neck with around 50 or more casings on a towel in a baking sheet. Spray once roll 180° spray again. Then I'm ready to load. If I have excess a light roll on the towel. Nothing goes into the press wet. I think the one shot is good stuff.

 

[xlsbob]

Personally I've never had a problem with tumbling loaded rounds, I usually run them about 20 minutes. Everybody has their own way of doing things and that's what works for me. If someone else isn't comfortable tumbling loaded rounds that's fine, to each their own.

 

[ma96782]

Dillion says......"blah, blah, blah..."

How about what RCBS says......

RCBS says for their vibratory cleaner: "Do not attempt to clean loaded ammunition under any conditions."

RCBS says for their tumbler: "Do not attempt to clean loaded ammunition. To do so could result in cartridge detonation causing serious personal injury."

What does the FROG PAD say?

Q. Is tumbling loaded ammunition dangerous?

A. Short term tumbling will have no real affect on loaded ammunition, but extensive tumbling can cause the breakdown of the powder grains. This would have two major effects. First, smaller grains will ignite more quickly than larger grains, and second the deterrent coating on the outside of the grains may be rubbed off and will be absent from any fractured edges which will cause the powder to burn more quickly raising pressures.

Tests run some years ago by a commercial entity did indicate that potentially dangerous changes in powder charge burning characteristics do take place after PROLONGED periods in either a vibratory or a tumbling cleaner.

The key word here is prolonged. Many manufacturers of ammunition do a final cleaning of their product either by tumbling or a vibratory process before boxing it for shipment. In no case is this allowed to exceed more than just a couple of minutes. The intent is not so much to "polish" but to remove any traces of contaminants which might in time leave marks on the finished product. There seems to be a consensus among the ammunition manufacturing engineers that a minute or two of vibratory cleaning has no discernable effect on burning rates, especially for loads that are compressed, or nearly so. However, all have emphasized the need for EXTREME CAUTION not to overdo the process.

They also pointed out that there is a considerable difference in effect on the powder charge depending on whether the process is by "tumbling" or "vibrating." It would appear that tumbling has less effect on the powder than vibrating, though this is mostly a matter of degree. The admonition to use EXTREME CAUTION to insure that the process never exceeds a couple of minutes applies equally to either process.

Ideally you should do your reloading after an extensive cleaning of the empty brass so any cleaning after loading is merely to remove traces of lube or to keep fingerprints from staining after a couple of months storage. A two stage process is recommended. One minute or so in a fairly abrasive cleaner with a tiny bit of solvent added to it to remove any traces of lube left on the brass, followed by one minute or so in clean corncob media to remove any traces of abrasive. Religiously follow several basic rules: use only a small amount of solvent and do the cleaning in a well ventilated area; change your media frequently, never letting it "load-up" with lube; and never "let it run while you do something else" and run the risk
of letting it run too long and altering the burning rate of the powder.

Taken from: Miscellaneous Questions #3

Aloha, Mark

 

[Crohnos01]

Yeah, it's all kind of like having Clint Eastwood draw down on you and say "Do you feel lucky punk?"

Me?.... I'm the guy who buys a car and 5 days after the warranty expired the engine throws the timing belt and over heats.... Not feeling so lucky....I will take a pass on tumbling live ammo.... Besides... I use a wet tumbler with SS media... with my luck, it will turn my rounds into something better suited for a squirt gun

 

[DizzyJ]

I have been in the habit of leaving the case lubrication on my cases after i resize them. I was talking to a fella the other day and he swore that i should wash my brass after I resize it to get the case lube off it. He seamed to think that the lube was not good in the action. I did not get it. Do yall wash your brass after you resize it?

As the gas expands upon firing, the case will swell to fit the chamber. A lubricated case will not grip the sides of the chamber as tightly as a clean non-oily one will, and a greater amount of thrust will be placed rearward on the bolt face.

This may or may not cause a problem depending on the condition of your bolt and lugs, and or how "hot" the load is.

 

[American123]

I use royal purple case lube for my Dillon 550 reloading rifle. It's the best. Spray it on. Reload, throw all the reloads into a big bath towel and rub them around. It leaves a small Non sticky residue on the cases if not wiped off, but I like to wipe it off just because and it takes so little time why not. Quick, easy, don't have to lube each one individually. I would never use anything else for my production.

 

[Certaindeaf]

I use royal purple case lube for my Dillon 550 reloading rifle. It's the best. Spray it on. Reload, throw all the reloads into a big bath towel and rub them around. It leaves a small Non sticky residue on the cases if not wiped off, but I like to wipe it off just because and it takes so little time why not. Quick, easy, don't have to lube each one individually. I would never use anything else for my production.

 

[Member 5605]

Let's start by the type of lube.

Any petroleum based lube needs washed off: period.

Using a lanolin lube with alcohol you are fine with residual lube.

 

[james2562]

Thanks all. I think i will will be wiping them off for now and tumbling them when i pick up a tumbler.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Thanks all. I think i will will be wiping them off for now and tumbling them when i pick up a tumbler.

Are you familiar with the "tumble" method using a towel?
I'd do that.. with a bit of the appropriate solvent on the towel.
You can do hundreds in about fifteen seconds.

 

[james2562]

Are you familiar with the "tumble" method using a towel?
I'd do that.. with a bit of the appropriate solvent on the towel.
You can do hundreds in about fifteen seconds.

I am not familiar with that method. Please elaborate?

 

[Certaindeaf]

I am not familiar with that method. Please elaborate?

place a pile a brass/ammo in the middle of a towel, gather the long ends.. one in each hand and raise same in a rhythmic and repeating fashion. giggity

 

[CLT65]

I've used RCBS's water soluable for 20 years or more.

Me too. I love it, so easy. I tend to load in batches though, and not in a hurry. I'll size a couple hundred pieces of .223 brass or whatever, rinse them off in hot soapy water so they're nice and clean. A little Lemishine to brighten them up maybe, and a touch of ArmorAll Wash and Wax in the water to keep them from tarnishing right away. Then they sit out for a couple days to be sure they're nice and dry. It works real well for me. I haven't thought about sticky cases for decades.

As to tumbling live ammo; that's a subject that has been argued over and beat to death on numerous forums for years. To each their own and I'll never fault someone for erring on the side of caution and safety, but personally I'm not scared of it in the slightest, especially for short periods.

If you look around online you'll find numerous threads where someone has gotten way more scientific than I would ever take the time for. One guy I remember did a full on study with several different calibers, numerous powders, controls, microscope for examining the powder, etc.. He tumbled the live ammo and stopped at certain intervals to pull the rounds apart and examine the powder for any sign of deterioration. I think some went as long as a week, and he never found any sign of deterioration in any of them. As I recall he then shot them over a chronograph, along with the control ammo with the same loads that had not been tumbled, and there was no statistical difference from tumbling. I've tumbled live ammo myself in the past with never a problem but don't anymore. I won't say that I recommend it, but I'm convinced that a short time in a tumbler is quite safe.

That said, just because bad things didn't happen for that guy or others who have tried it, doesn't mean that bad things won't happen for someone else under different circumstances. The only example I've ever heard of where it's been claimed that damage occurred due to powder breaking down was a story I read about someone who kept a box of .44 mag ammo in the glove box of their off-road truck in Montana or Alaska or somewhere (I forget). The story goes that it rode around in that glove box for months on end, bumpity-bump off road, effectively tumbled day after day, week after week. The guy then shot a round and blew up the gun. Perhaps the powder broke down from all the vibration as is claimed, or perhaps there was another factor at work there.

What's the worst thing for powder, the worst way to store it for storage life? Heat. What even worse? Hot, cold, hot cold. What do you get in a glove box of a truck day after day, month after month? Yep. A glove box is just about the very worst place in the world to store ammo. You have that powder deteriorating from heat, then vibration on top of it; quite a recipe for troubles.

 

[orygun]

I always remove the lube on a bottle necked case.
Lube can attract dirt and grit that I don't need in my chamber.
The case swells against the chamber wall when firing. This does two things, seals against gas leakage and "locks" the case in place until the pressure subsides and the case shrinks, allowing easier extraction. Lube will hinder this process and the case can then exert a higher amount of thrust against the bolt increasing the load on the lugs.
Neither of these situations will show a problem in the short term, but can eventually lead to shortened brass life, if nothing else.

After sizing I wipe the cases down then toss them in the tumbler for a while.