National Leak shows ATF plans to halt private sales via new rule

[msgriff]

Today, I realized, that Ryan Busse is a member here.

 

[mhayd93]

You keep wanting to confine the discussion to retail firearms sales owners, but this thread it about the proposal of FFL license requirements for private citizen sales of personal property.

You just made my point though. On top of the licensing fees, the learning curve and maintenance of an FFL license... to include subjecting yourself to random audits and inventory inspections... it'll cost you another $204 annually for a records service provider... just to have the right to sell a few items of personal property that, combined, you may not even make a $200 profit on to even cover your record keeping bill(??)

It may be "blah blah blah" nonsense in your pro-gooberment/regulation mind, but to those why believe in the rights of the people... It stands... if they want to put a stop to private party firearms sales... make it prohibitively expensive, cumbersome and under the control of gooberment to terminate your rights at will.

Exactly, FFLs are already burdensome to the 2nd Amendment, let alone if they then are required of anyone who may be selling/trading firearms, not just businesses!

 

[arakboss]

Exactly, FFLs are already burdensome to the 2nd Amendment, let alone if they then are required of anyone who may be selling/trading firearms, not just businesses!

Nothing to see here:

Gun industry cries foul after hundreds of gun dealers lose licenses amid Biden administration crackdown

An uptick in the amount of gun dealers who have had their licenses revoked by the Biden administration has some in the industry suggesting they are being targeted.

www.foxnews.com

 

[E4mafia]

ATF Inspector Seizes Gun Store Customer Records Without A Warrant

An ATF Industry Operations Inspector (IOI) violated federal law when they seized an FFL's completed Form 4473s, taking them off-site to make copies.

www.ammoland.com

 

[msgriff]

ATF Inspector Seizes Gun Store Customer Records Without A Warrant

An ATF Industry Operations Inspector (IOI) violated federal law when they seized an FFL's completed Form 4473s, taking them off-site to make copies.

www.ammoland.com

Democrats are no longer operating within the confines of the law or the Constitution.

 

[wired]

ATF Inspector Seizes Gun Store Customer Records Without A Warrant

An ATF Industry Operations Inspector (IOI) violated federal law when they seized an FFL's completed Form 4473s, taking them off-site to make copies.

www.ammoland.com

They dont need a warrant. I mean its fun to act like the sky is falling but just spouting off stuff that is blatantly false is fun too. If the ATF deems you have violated the terms of your licensing they can close your business and seize your records without a warrant. They can make copies , whatever. When a dealer goes out of business they have to surrender their records to the ATF. HAVE TO, Its not optional.

 

[E4mafia]

why does everyone assume its just hysteria if you share a link?

 

[msgriff]

why does everyone assume its just hysteria if you share a link?

Your link spells it out fairly clearly, it's not hysteria. Unsurprisingly, there are some here who gaslight the issues.

 

[billdeserthills]

ATF Inspector Seizes Gun Store Customer Records Without A Warrant

An ATF Industry Operations Inspector (IOI) violated federal law when they seized an FFL's completed Form 4473s, taking them off-site to make copies.

www.ammoland.com

The ATF demanded my records when I had an FFL

 

[msgriff]

The ATF demanded my records when I had an FFL

Did they remove them from your premises?

 

[Tye]

You are.

I can't afford to lose my home, my livelihood etc…

Perhaps you can, or wish to risk all of the above.

I do not wish to. Unless you guarantee in writing along with several million dollars (call it 10 million) in escrow for legal fees, living expenses & our retirement.

But sure, throw down yer thang on an Internet forum…

Exactly why our Constitution is diminishing in front of us. No one is collectively willing to risk anything, but will too lose those things from the unabated reach of a Tyrannical Force.

 

[bradsteen]

For those that didn't read the article:

According to 18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A), FFLs must maintain records such as a bound book and copies of the ATF Form 4473, which Kiloton Tactical did maintain. During an inspection, an IOI is able to look over records for policy violations but does not have the authority to inspect the documents off-site. This action is expressly prohibited by 27 CFR § 478.23(cd).

The statute reads: "The inspections and examinations provided by this section do not authorize an ATF officer to seize any records or documents other than those records or documents constituting material evidence of a violation of law. If an ATF officer seizes such records or documents, copies shall be provided to the licensee within a reasonable time."

At the time of the seizure, no wrongdoing was suspected. The IOI insisted he was within his legal rights to remove the documents from the store. The IOI's deviation put him at odds with federal law.

 

[wired]

For those that didn't read the article:

Potentially but with their new zero tolerance policy if the IOI has the authority to shut the business down on the spot for violations, which I believe they do, then the ATF by default takes possession of 4473. There is no time period where the ATF cannot have them any more so they basically just take everything.

Reminds me to clean up my books.

 

[billdeserthills]

Did they remove them from your premises?

All of them, then back to their lair--they would bring everything back at 5pm

In an effort to neaten up my sloppy writing I began typing up my entries but the ATF said everything needed to be hand-written

 

[thekingoftroy]

They dont need a warrant. I mean its fun to act like the sky is falling but just spouting off stuff that is blatantly false is fun too. If the ATF deems you have violated the terms of your licensing they can close your business and seize your records without a warrant. They can make copies , whatever. When a dealer goes out of business they have to surrender their records to the ATF. HAVE TO, Its not optional.

Exactly correct. I just closed my FFL business (on my terms). The process was I had to write the ATF a letter stating I was closing, what date I was closing and then return all of my records to them. FFL's are subject to one inspection during a calendar year, however additional inspections require a search warrant.

 

[billdeserthills]

Exactly correct. I just closed my FFL business (on my terms). The process was I had to write the ATF a letter stating I was closing, what date I was closing and then return all of my records to them. FFL's are subject to one inspection during a calendar year, however additional inspections require a search warrant.

ATF came by more than once a year but I never saw a warrant

 

[thekingoftroy]

ATF came by more than once a year but I never saw a warrant

Hmmm. I was just repeating what the ATF told me when I got my FFL. But we all know the government never lies

 

[E4mafia]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1697298779391528996

https://twitter.com/x/status/1697299159898825059

FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Takes Another Life-Saving Step to Keep Guns Out of Dangerous Hands | The White House

In March, President Biden signed an Executive Order directing the Attorney General to move as close to universal background checks as possible within existing law. Today, as a result of the Executive Order and the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, the Department of Justice is taking life-saving...

www.whitehouse.gov

 

[bradsteen]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1697298779391528996

https://twitter.com/x/status/1697299159898825059

FACT SHEET: Biden-Harris Administration Takes Another Life-Saving Step to Keep Guns Out of Dangerous Hands | The White House

In March, President Biden signed an Executive Order directing the Attorney General to move as close to universal background checks as possible within existing law. Today, as a result of the Executive Order and the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, the Department of Justice is taking life-saving...

www.whitehouse.gov

More from DOJ - the rule hasn't been published yet, so take it with a grain of salt.

Justice Department Proposes New Regulation to Update Definition of “Engaged in the Business” as a Firearms Dealer

The Justice Department today announced it has submitted to the Federal Register a notice of proposed rulemaking that would clarify the circumstances in which a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms and thus required to obtain a license and run background checks. The...

www.justice.gov

Definition of “Engaged in the Business” as a Dealer in Firearms | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

On August 30, 2023, the Attorney General signed ATF’s notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM) 2022R-17, “Definition of ‘Engaged in the Business’ as a Dealer in Firearms," which proposes to amend ATF’s regulations to implement the provisions of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (BSCA), enacted on...

www.atf.gov

 

[E4mafia]

Updated first post with relevant links