National Leak shows ATF plans to halt private sales via new rule

[wired]

In the realm of the Second Amendment, what battles are worth fighting to you then?

Come on man. You can wish and dream all you want but do you actually and seriously think you are going to somehow wish away FFL licensing? Really? Theres a few minor points of contention like MAYBE the brace ruling that MIGHT get kicked down the road but FFL licensing? What I think makes no difference. Its not going to happen. Its not a battle. Thats just a waste of resources that could be better put to use doing something that could potentially have a chance of flying.

 

[mhayd93]

Come on man. You can wish and dream all you want but do you actually and seriously think you are going to somehow wish away FFL licensing? Really? Theres a few minor points of contention like MAYBE the brace ruling that MIGHT get kicked down the road but FFL licensing? What I think makes no difference. Its not going to happen. Its not a battle. Thats just a waste of resources that could be better put to use doing something that could potentially have a chance of flying.

Hence why I asked what you think is worth fighting.

 

[wired]

Hence why I asked what you think is worth fighting.

It depends on what has realistic chances. Remember it them that have unlimited budgets and government lawyers on staff, not us. Fighting quixotic battles doesn't halp the cause.

 

[mhayd93]

It depends on what has realistic chances. Remember it them that have unlimited budgets and government lawyers on staff, not us. Fighting quixotic battles doesn't halp the cause.

I would agree to go after the low-hanging fruit first, and then build upon successes. But who sets the bar for what realistic chances are?

It is not infeasible to picture a scenario where gun control is taken to such an extreme—as we have already seen in states like California, Illinois, New York, Washington, etc.—that even a small reclamation of 2A rights is likely unrealistic (let's say unrealistic is just less than a 50% chance of success).

At some point, surely it is better to go down in Quixotic fashion right? As opposed to just letting it all wither away because the perceived odds of success don't meet whatever your magic number is.

Again though, I am legitimately curious as to what you believe are worthy, or realistic, causes to fight for in the realm of the Second Amendment.

 

[DunRanull]

Missing the fact that "you" would be required to have an FFL license in order to sell any of your firearms... even if you utilize a 3rd party FFL for the transfer.

The rumor mill has been saying 5 firearms per year, some saying 3 per year and others quoting a memo that said, in addition to the transactions per year, if you make even as much as a 1$ profit on any one firearm sale would require an FFL license.

Requiring a license goes leaps and bounds beyond universal BGC's. Basically a permit/license to sell that may be revoked at the gooberments whim under brandon's new "zero tolerance policy". Last year saw a 500% increase in active FFL license revocations and in some cases... they went back several years to reopen audit information previously deemed "allowable" to now class as a "willful violation" to revoke licenses.

Not to mention being subject to annual audits and the other related fees and processes that would be required to obtain and maintain an FFL license.

The scenario I can easily see is making it mandatory to have an FFL to sell your privately owned firearms, but then they either won't approve applications for one reason or another... or.... issue one, let everyone get normalized to the new law, then moving the goalposts and start revoking them.

UBC's today, total licensing tomorrow. The noose is being prepared.

 

[DunRanull]

It depends on what has realistic chances. Remember it them that have unlimited budgets and government lawyers on staff, not us. Fighting quixotic battles doesn't halp the cause.

"Quixotic battles"? Hardly. Thats what some claimed when the slick willy ban was passed. So the libs quixotically attached a 10-year sunset so it would pass and kicked the can down the road. Just what is "the cause" in your mind?
Make no mistake brothers, they mean to take all the guns from all the people until we are a disarmed and helpless population. Helluva legacy to leave those coming down the road, don't you think?

 

[wired]

"Quixotic battles"? Hardly. Thats what some claimed when the slick willy ban was passed. So the libs quixotically attached a 10-year sunset so it would pass and kicked the can down the road. Just what is "the cause" in your mind?
Make no mistake brothers, they mean to take all the guns from all the people until we are a disarmed and helpless population. Helluva legacy to leave those coming down the road, don't you think?

The Clinton ban had a fixed sunset . It was not overturned. That's the only way they could get it to pass and at the end of 10 years it lapsed. Not the same as getting something overturned once it's fully in force.

 

[wired]

I would agree to go after the low-hanging fruit first, and then build upon successes. But who sets the bar for what realistic chances are?

It is not infeasible to picture a scenario where gun control is taken to such an extreme—as we have already seen in states like California, Illinois, New York, Washington, etc.—that even a small reclamation of 2A rights is likely unrealistic (let's say unrealistic is just less than a 50% chance of success).

At some point, surely it is better to go down in Quixotic fashion right? As opposed to just letting it all wither away because the perceived odds of success don't meet whatever your magic number is.

Again though, I am legitimately curious as to what you believe are worthy, or realistic, causes to fight for in the realm of the Second Amendment.

When you do not have unlimited resources not every battle is worth fighting so you triage and figure out which ones are a. Worth fighting for and b. Actually winnable. Not all battles can be won and the ones that aren't only drain limited resources. Some gun laws are so ensconced there is nothing you do and no amount of fighting or spending money that is going to do anything but leave your position weaker.

 

[DunRanull]

The Clinton ban had a fixed sunset . It was not overturned. That's the only way they could get it to pass and at the end of 10 years it lapsed. Not the same as getting something overturned once it's fully in force.

Hmmm that's exactly what I said... You never said what you think "The Cause "is?

 

[wired]

Hmmm that's exactly what I said...

Yes but it doesn't seem like you understood it

 

[E4mafia]

ATF Intimidating Another Home-Based Gun Dealer to Surrender FFL

The ATF is trying to intimidate Harris – and other home-based gun dealers – into surrendering his Federal Firearm License.

www.ammoland.com

Public Strongly Supporting Texas Gun Dealer Targeted by ATF

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives recently targeted a Texas gun dealer's Federal Firearms License for revocation.

www.ammoland.com

 

[wired]

ATF Intimidating Another Home-Based Gun Dealer to Surrender FFL

The ATF is trying to intimidate Harris – and other home-based gun dealers – into surrendering his Federal Firearm License.

www.ammoland.com

Public Strongly Supporting Texas Gun Dealer Targeted by ATF

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives recently targeted a Texas gun dealer's Federal Firearms License for revocation.

www.ammoland.com

Keep your paperwork clean and they can't touch you. Don't and they can . Survived many an audit but I've known people that haven't and they had no one to blame but themselves

 

[E4mafia]

USDOJ: United States Department of Justice Archive - Appendix C

Section 3: FOPA

 

[arakboss]

I wonder if the ATF's Public Affairs Division is hiring.

 

[Yarome]

Keep your paperwork clean and they can't touch you. Don't and they can . Survived many an audit but I've known people that haven't and they had no one to blame but themselves

Now that we've heard from the pro-gooberment, pro-regulation, pro-compliance, privilege's for me,... but not for thee side of the isle..... perfection is neither a reasonable expectation nor consistent with the "human condition".

If you are a sole proprietor and are able to expend the time and effort to critically analyze every single customer's 4473's, forms of ID, read slightly obscured serial numbers... then input that information without error or any transpositions (we all knows typos aren't a thing, right)... good on you! For those FFL's with employees or multiple location under various managers.... perfection is exponentially less realistic.

Being less than absolutely perfect also does not constitute "willful disregard" of the rules and regulations, is no way makes a customer prohibited from owning a firearm and in any other realm.... is not considered as proof of intent nor qualify as criminal activity.

The "zero tolerance policy" is nothing more than a means to an end to shut down the firearm industry. Citizens rights and livelihoods be damned! In brandon's own words... "come hell or high water" he's going to "get it done". Which we all know to mean.... "my agenda trumps all... ya peons!"

The attempt to make an FFL license a requirement for all private gun sales is nothing more than trying to get a private citizens rights under the control of their "rule of law" and prohibit the exercise of that right at their whim. Even if you are perfect in every detail... it will at least have a severe chilling affect on private property sales, or for those with limited means outright prevent such activity, by making it prohibitively expensive, the learning curve too great and/or the process too cumbersome to apply for and maintain an FFL license.

Simple as that.

 

[wired]

Now that we've heard from the pro-gooberment, pro-regulation, pro-compliance, privilege's for me,... but not for thee side of the isle..... perfection is neither a reasonable expectation nor consistent with the "human condition".

If you are a sole proprietor and are able to expend the time and effort to critically analyze every single customer's 4473's, forms of ID, read slightly obscured serial numbers... then input that information without error or any transpositions (we all knows typos aren't a thing, right)... good on you! For those FFL's with employees or multiple location under various managers.... perfection is exponentially less realistic.

Being less than absolutely perfect also does not constitute "willful disregard" of the rules and regulations, is no way makes a customer prohibited from owning a firearm and in any other realm.... is not considered as proof of intent nor qualify as criminal activity.

The "zero tolerance policy" is nothing more than a means to an end to shut down the firearm industry. Citizens rights and livelihoods be damned! In brandon's own words... "come hell or high water" he's going to "get it done". Which we all know to mean.... "my agenda trumps all... ya peons!"

The attempt to make an FFL license a requirement for all private gun sales is nothing more than trying to get a private citizens rights under the control of their "rule of law" and prohibit the exercise of that right at their whim. Even if you are perfect in every detail... it will at least have a severe chilling affect on private property sales, or for those with limited means outright prevent such activity, by making it prohibitively expensive, the learning curve too great and/or the process too cumbersome to apply for and maintain an FFL license.

Simple as that.

Blah Blah Blah. Listen, if you are an FFL hoder and you cant manage your own paperwork then find someone who can or gasp spend $17 a month to use off the shelf software to do it for you. Its not that difficult to not be an idiot. We have over 200 FFL's in the city I live in 90% of them kitchen table. No one is going around shutting those guys down because they aren't incompetent. If ytou are incompetent and cant follow simple instructions then yeah, you should probably look into doing something else with your free time beside running a gun business.


www.fastbound.com

 

[billdeserthills]

ATF Intimidating Another Home-Based Gun Dealer to Surrender FFL

The ATF is trying to intimidate Harris – and other home-based gun dealers – into surrendering his Federal Firearm License.

www.ammoland.com

Public Strongly Supporting Texas Gun Dealer Targeted by ATF

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives recently targeted a Texas gun dealer's Federal Firearms License for revocation.

www.ammoland.com

I bet the ATF is harassing Harris because he refused to give up his entire database

 

[wired]

I bet the ATF is harassing Harris because he refused to give up his entire database

So let me get this straight? Hes a licensed dealer who agreed to the rules of the game when he became a dealer. He did not keep up with the paperwork and the ATF is requiring him to turn in his paperwork as they are allowed to do . Because of his refusal to follow the ATF's protocol he is being harassed? He is going to be out of business in any case and he will be forced to turn over his database when he goes out of business.

Perhaps each and every gun shop owner should post a sign on their door stating that if and when they go out of business that ALL of their records WILL be handed over to the ATF just so theres no surprises? And he isn't being "intimidated into turning in his FFL" If they order him to turn in his FFL they just erase him from the system. Theres no intimidation into doing anything.

 

[E4mafia]

I bet the ATF is harassing Harris because he refused to give up his entire database

Well in the article it says that the ATF cleared him initially for a clerical error since his penmanship wasn't clear enough (it states he is now legally blind). His wife helped him write in to be more legible and accurate. He complied with the ATF when they came after him and even got a clearing from an Agent/ATF. Years later they (the very same agent who cleared him) came back over the very same issue they already cleared him off on.

https://www.saf.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/8.19.22-ATTORNEY-LETTER-CLEARINGANY-WRONG-DOING.pdf

 

[Yarome]

Blah Blah Blah. Listen, if you are an FFL hoder and you cant manage your own paperwork then find someone who can or gasp spend $17 a month to use off the shelf software to do it for you. Its not that difficult to not be an idiot. We have over 200 FFL's in the city I live in 90% of them kitchen table. No one is going around shutting those guys down because they aren't incompetent. If ytou are incompetent and cant follow simple instructions then yeah, you should probably look into doing something else with your free time beside running a gun business.

You keep wanting to confine the discussion to retail firearms sales owners, but this thread it about the proposal of FFL license requirements for private citizen sales of personal property.

You just made my point though. On top of the licensing fees, the learning curve and maintenance of an FFL license... to include subjecting yourself to random audits and inventory inspections... it'll cost you another $204 annually for a records service provider... just to have the right to sell a few items of personal property that, combined, you may not even make a $200 profit on to even cover your record keeping bill(??)

It may be "blah blah blah" nonsense in your pro-gooberment/regulation mind, but to those why believe in the rights of the people... It stands... if they want to put a stop to private party firearms sales... make it prohibitively expensive, cumbersome and under the control of gooberment to terminate your rights at will.