K31 - Switzerland's answer to the Kar98K

[tac]

'tis but a poor thing, but 'tis my own...'

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[Andy54Hawken]

Very nice rifle....thank you for sharing tac...
Andy

 

[Mikej]

"Poor Thing"? It' looks quite proud if you ask me.

These rifles of yours tac, they're all in such good shape. The people you've got your rifles from over the years must have procured them before they went all over the world, through hell and high water. I'm pretty sure you don't get these fine rifles in a well used condition and "Refurbish" them? My self, being new to this old rifle collecting, can't decide if I like the guns with all the dents dings and scratches that have some stories to tell, or rifles that look like they've been saved, mostly, in original condition?

 

[Andy54Hawken]

If I may be allowed ....

Speaking for myself...
I find nothing "wrong" with a well used...but maintained rifle.
And when I luck into a owning or shooting a "cherry" specimen of a rifle...that too is very enjoyable.
I take each rifle as an individual ...to be enjoyed on its own merit.

When refurbishing or restoring a rifle...
Wear and tear...are part of the rifle's history...to totally erase those marks...is to erase the history of the rifle.
I try to make the repairs look "natural" so to speak...as in tough to spot...
And not make an old abused rifle look brand new.

So normal wear marks...usually don't get much attention from me...other than to make sure that they don't get worse.
Wear marks on a firearm...do not bother me....its abuse marks that may break a sale for me.

Also something to consider with old military rifles...
When they were used....no one was thinking of their future collector status....
They were used...often at times abused....
Rack rash from bolts , corrosive ammo , tossed in the back of truck , used in the field , in all weather....etc...
Takes a toll.

Sorry for the thread drift
Andy

 

[tac]

Mike and Andy - unlike you guys over there, we don't get the 'select' button to press - what we are offered for sale is what there is. If you want rare 'pristine' milsurp then by golly you'd pay for it. A top-of-the-line Long Lee will be around $1500, often more. These days a nice K31 like mine will be about the same as you are paying - around $500, maybe a tad more. WW2 Mausers are hitting stupid money - I've seen little or nothing under $1000 for a good while, and m/41 snipers are around the $3000-3500 mark.

Ten years ago my m/96 cost me the equivalent of ca. $850-900.

Both my Swiss carbines - the K31 and the K11, were on the rack in a USAF base R&GC, and I just lucked into them - how they came to be here in UK is a complete mystery but I'd guess that a US serviceman brought them here hoping to be able to use them, and somehow ran foul of the legal system that prevented him from taking them off-base and into the community. The management of the R&GC were never going to say, as all commission sales were confidential, but neither of them have import marks on them - anywhere. They had to go through the process of being proofed before I could actually buy them, yet another barrier in the way back then. Nowadays EVERY milsurp firearm is proofed automatically - something the importer has to arrange.

For Mike - sure, we CAN refurbish a piece that might have it appearance enhanced by doing so, and a lot of people actually do. Birchwood-Casey does well here in UK. but don't forget there are many native-grown unguents and refinishing stuff - has been for hundred of years - that sell as well. Every gun show here, and game show too, has a demo stand where skilled stock finishers show how YOU too can get that professional-looking finish... Watching the man from Holland and Holland a couple of years ago, making a $100 Boyd stock look like something to grace the gun rack of HMtQ was a lesson I'll never forget.

 

[Mikej]

Mike and Andy - unlike you guys over there, we don't get the 'select' button to press - what we are offered for sale is what there is. If you want rare 'pristine' milsurp then by golly you'd pay for it. A top-of-the-line Long Lee will be around $1500, often more. These days a nice K31 like mine will be about the same as you are paying - around $500, maybe a tad more. WW2 Mausers are hitting stupid money - I've seen little or nothing under $1000 for a good while, and m/41 snipers are around the $3000-3500 mark.

After looking at your post I went on gunbroker. I've been wanting a K31. I just missed a nice unique one, a member had posted, that had a disc/plaque indicating a shooting competition some years ago. Unique! After looking on GB this morning there are several K31s. Their condition is not near as good, as far as the wood goes, as yours. Not bad mind you, just used well. The metals were in pretty good shape but there were a lot of compression dents, and dings in the stocks. That's okay by me. That's where the "Stories" are in those guns. Those well used guns are $500.00+. A K31 the condition of the one in your video would be at least $700.00+ I'd think.
For the record, I don't have any experience with the Schmidt Ruben or K31, other than viewing here and GB, and I fondled several beaters at Cabela's that were $400.00 and less.

 

[tac]

After looking at your post I went on gunbroker. I've been wanting a K31. I just missed a nice unique one, a member had posted, that had a disc/plaque indicating a shooting competition some years ago. Unique! After looking on GB this morning there are several K31s. Their condition is not near as good, as far as the wood goes, as yours. Not bad mind you, just used well. The metals were in pretty good shape but there were a lot of compression dents, and dings in the stocks. That's okay by me. That's where the "Stories" are in those guns. Those well used guns are $500.00+. A K31 the condition of the one in your video would be at least $700.00+ I'd think.
For the record, I don't have any experience with the Schmidt Ruben or K31, other than viewing here and GB, and I fondled several beaters at Cabela's that were $400.00 and less.

We have a GREAT support thread over on gunboards.com which is supported by the boss of Swiss Products, Latigo St Marie, up there in Kalispell MT and his dad, Piérre. They make a whole range of accessories for the K31 and the K11 and Gew1900 rifle - not bling, but useful stuff like a diopter sight set for each gun that is accepted by the Swiss shooting federation back home in Switzerland. A muzzle brake that works and a barrel harmonic damper that also works, although many users have found that the muzzle brake actually has the same effect.

We also have a website - swissrifles.com -and like the gunboards site, we have Swiss citizens on it. There are many Swiss shooting clubs in the USA and Canada, where ex-pats, temporary or permanent, can get together with the locals and shoot the annual qualification matches. BTW, temporary Swiss residents aged between 18 and 40 are required by Swiss law to shoot the so-called 'obligataire' shoot ever year and submit the targets to the ol' homestead. Just because you are over here having fun, doesn't mean that you can ignore your obligations to serve the nation in the citizen army.

Ammunition can be easy or hard to find - no in-between. It's called GP11, and easily bears comparison with the very best sniping ammunition of Lake city arsenal, no matter what date might be on the packaging. A battle pack is 480 rds, BTW - finding it is up to you, but here in UK I've never seen one.

Commercial ammunition comes from Prvi Partizan - same 174gr bullet weight - but it's around 200 fps slower than GP11. and BTW, GP11 falls somewhere between a 175gr .308Win and 180gr .30-06 in wallop.

Reloading, which is what I have to do, with Prvi ammunition at $1.12 per shot, is easy but can be finicky, depending on the gun you are shooting. The original GP11 bullet is a real masterpiece of aerodynamic design, and only Berger gets anywhere near it in slipperiness. Any .308 bullet from 155 to 190 works well. and there is a lot of advice on our sites about loading it. A K31 has a tight chamber, and any of the Schmidt-Rubins are somewhat looser, but these are technicalities that need not concern you right now.

This is five shots with 155gr Lapua scenar at 100mfrom the K31 -


This is another ten shots from the same gun - 168gr SMK bullets - the haze is rainfall.....


And here they are for comparison - L to R - .223 Rem, .308Win, 7.5x55 Swiss - note the ultra-long ogive on the Swiss round.............

Having been a Swiss shooter since 1962, I'm pretty sure that I can have stab at answering your questions, if you have any. Did I mention that the Swiss have a habit of putting a troop tag underneath the buttplate that gives their name and rank, DOB, MOS ans home address? Many folks in the USA have actually contacted the previous owner of his relatives and made great and friendly contact. Should this ever happen to you, we have a pro-forma letter on swissrifles.com in all three common languages used in Switzerland, provided by a Swiss in a respectful format. As you might have figured out by now, the Swiss, particularly the older people, are sticklers for formality.

I'm listening....................

 

[Camelfilter]

Thanks as always @tac for the very helpful sharing of information.

Have a K31, not near on as nice as yours. Have yet to take it out & see what I can do with it.

Plonked (yes plonked) a bit with it using some PPU, just to fire form some brass. While having a little fun!

Waiting on learning some more reloading, then hope on reloading for it. So likely a year or more out, in my case.

 

[tac]

Thanks as always @tac for the very helpful sharing of information.

Have a K31, not near on as nice as yours. Have yet to take it out & see what I can do with it.

Plonked (yes plonked) a bit with it using some PPU, just to fire form some brass. While having a little fun!

Waiting on learning some more reloading, then hope on reloading for it. So likely a year or more out, in my case.

What do you mean fire-form brass? The only thing to remember with a K31 and reloading is to full-length resize every time - trim if needed. This is very important if you also shoot a Schmidt-Rubin of any kind - their chambers are a lot looser. The PPU brass is the same as Grafs - I have around 500 of each - PPU MAKE Graf's cases....

Reloading you'll need to get a bullet as near the shape of the GP11 bullet as you can - that long ogive can be tricky to replicate, but 168gr or, if you can find them 175gr Sierra Match King and Lapua Scenar are good. If you are rich, then Berger or JLK is the way to go,

 

[Camelfilter]

What do you mean fire-form brass? The only thing to remember with a K31 and reloading is to full-length resize every time - trim if needed. This is very important if you also shoot a Schmidt-Rubin of any kind - their chambers are a lot looser. The PPU brass is the same as Grafs - I have around 500 of each - PPU MAKE Graf's cases....

Reloading you'll need to get a bullet as near the shape of the GP11 bullet as you can - that long ogive can be tricky to replicate, but 168gr or, if you can find them 175gr Sierra Match King and Lapua Scenar are good. If you are rich, then Berger or JLK is the way to go,

Dunno, seemed a good excuse as any to take it out.

Have a few GP11 pulled bullets from the prior owner, so have an in hand comparator to use (once I get to the point of reloading). I think he also had given me a GP11 bullet in unprimed sized brass he used for setting up the dies as well. Plus dies.

All I need is that all elusive "extra time".

 

[Bam]

The K31 is such an amazing rifle that it will make a crappy shooter into a sniper.

 

[tac]

The K31 is such an amazing rifle that it will make a crappy shooter into a sniper better shooter.

FIFY.

 

[Mikej]

We have a GREAT support thread over on gunboards.com which is supported by the boss of Swiss Products, Latigo St Marie, up there in Kalispell MT and his dad, Piérre. They make a whole range of accessories for the K31 and the K11 and Gew1900 rifle - not bling, but useful stuff like a diopter sight set for each gun that is accepted by the Swiss shooting federation back home in Switzerland. A muzzle brake that works and a barrel harmonic damper that also works, although many users have found that the muzzle brake actually has the same effect.

We also have a website - swissrifles.com -and like the gunboards site, we have Swiss citizens on it. There are many Swiss shooting clubs in the USA and Canada, where ex-pats, temporary or permanent, can get together with the locals and shoot the annual qualification matches. BTW, temporary Swiss residents aged between 18 and 40 are required by Swiss law to shoot the so-called 'obligataire' shoot ever year and submit the targets to the ol' homestead. Just because you are over here having fun, doesn't mean that you can ignore your obligations to serve the nation in the citizen army.

Ammunition can be easy or hard to find - no in-between. It's called GP11, and easily bears comparison with the very best sniping ammunition of Lake city arsenal, no matter what date might be on the packaging. A battle pack is 480 rds, BTW - finding it is up to you, but here in UK I've never seen one.

Commercial ammunition comes from Prvi Partizan - same 174gr bullet weight - but it's around 200 fps slower than GP11. and BTW, GP11 falls somewhere between a 175gr .308Win and 180gr .30-06 in wallop.

Reloading, which is what I have to do, with Prvi ammunition at $1.12 per shot, is easy but can be finicky, depending on the gun you are shooting. The original GP11 bullet is a real masterpiece of aerodynamic design, and only Berger gets anywhere near it in slipperiness. Any .308 bullet from 155 to 190 works well. and there is a lot of advice on our sites about loading it. A K31 has a tight chamber, and any of the Schmidt-Rubins are somewhat looser, but these are technicalities that need not concern you right now.

This is five shots with 155gr Lapua scenar at 100mfrom the K31 -

View attachment 736412
This is another ten shots from the same gun - 168gr SMK bullets - the haze is rainfall.....
View attachment 736413
View attachment 736414
And here they are for comparison - L to R - .223 Rem, .308Win, 7.5x55 Swiss - note the ultra-long ogive on the Swiss round.............
View attachment 736415
Having been a Swiss shooter since 1962, I'm pretty sure that I can have stab at answering your questions, if you have any. Did I mention that the Swiss have a habit of putting a troop tag underneath the buttplate that gives their name and rank, DOB, MOS ans home address? Many folks in the USA have actually contacted the previous owner of his relatives and made great and friendly contact. Should this ever happen to you, we have a pro-forma letter on swissrifles.com in all three common languages used in Switzerland, provided by a Swiss in a respectful format. As you might have figured out by now, the Swiss, particularly the older people, are sticklers for formality.

I'm listening....................

Thanks for all that. I'll keep you in mind if i get it in my craw to REALLY start watching gun Broker.

 

[tac]

'We are here to help.'

 

[Aero Denezol]

Fantastic rifles.

Sold mine to another member here, kind of regret doing that but there was zero GP11 available at the time.

Now I have a Finn M39, which is shooting the same scores as I did with the K31.

 

[tac]

This is the slightly older Swiss Products diopter sight set-up, if anybody here in interested in that kind of thing -

Rear - note the sliding spacer set-up -


Front - note that this has an optional Gehmann infinitely multi-adjustable diopter foresight element - that's around 120eu by itself.

Here is the older, non-adjustable-for-eye-relief rear sight unit -

This set is now in New Zealand.....

The Most-up-to-date unit has an adjustable height foresight unit of great beauty, mechanically, just the kind of thing you'd expect to see on a Swiss rifle of any kind, let alone an old milsurp item. Prices have taken a serious dive since Swiss Products severed partnership with Brownells and Grafs, and are now considered to be on a par with the best that Germany and Switzerland can offer, with the added benefit that the SP sights go up to 1000m, whereas the homegrown versions are only really any use for the 300m that the Swiss shoot.

IF you do make contact with SP, please mention my name - it can't hurt, right?

 

[tac]

Aaaaah, should have put this one up sooner.........................



See how clever the Swiss are!!! On the K31 the left-side groove for the thumb is in front of the right hand groove for the fingers.....how clever is that?

 

[tac]

Dunno, seemed a good excuse as any to take it out.

Have a few GP11 pulled bullets from the prior owner, so have an in hand comparator to use (once I get to the point of reloading). I think he also had given me a GP11 bullet in unprimed sized brass he used for setting up the dies as well. Plus dies.

All I need is that all elusive "extra time".

Don't forget, Mr Camelfilter, that you do NOT oil your K31. At all. Anywhere.

Since at least 1879 the Swiss have used a light natural grease made of natural products - tallow and lanolin - as both cleaner and lubricant for all their small arms. Called Waffenfett by the Swiss - gun-grease - it can be replicated these days with any light grease that is honey-coloured. I lucked in to the ten-pound can of Shakespeare spinning reel grease about twenty years ago, and I'm still using it...

After shooting, and while the barrel is still warm - TEN passes with a light greasy patch up and down the bore, take out the patch and leave the grease in the bore until the next session. Before shooting, patch out out and shoot. Failure to do so will result in a cloud of grey smoke that signifies the noob - back in CH this will earn you the right to buy the first round of drinks, which is when you find that your shooting pals can each drink a pint of schnapps.........

All the camming parts of the bolt get a little dob on the end of a cotton swab - Q-Tip - and the top and bottom surfaces of the op rod - the flat bit along the SHS of the bolt. The back surface of the bolt lugs gets a similar light wipe of grease - keep it WELL away from the front of the bolt!!!

This cleaning régime has made pretty much certain that your bore is as near as dammit like new from end to end - my K11 certainly is, and it is now a 120 y/o barrel. The K31 is still like new, but of course it has only had maybe 50,000 shots through it........

 

[tac]

Okay - nobody has asked for it, but some of you might find it interesting - THE SKINNY ON THE SWISS SERVICE CARTRIDGE - GP11 -

A look inside: GP-11 7.5x55 Swiss - Surplus Rifle Forum - www.surplusrifleforum.com

or, if you are feeling lazy - with grateful thanks to Surplus rifle Forum.

SURPLUS RIFLE FORUM - WWW.SURPLUSRIFLEFORUM.COM: FOR SHOOTERS AND COLLECTORS OF MILITARY FIREARMS WORLDWIDE

Originally posted by carteach0.

GP-11 Swiss 7.5mm, weighed in the balance.



So many of the new K-31 owners share the same opinions regarding the Swiss GP-11
round. It always begins with: "Wow, this is incredibly accurate!", closely followed
by: "Where can I get some more of this?"

The 7.5 Swiss is an interesting cartridge. It has features that echo other notably
accurate and powerful rounds over the last century. Its case is shorter, stouter,
and quite tapered when compared to it's contemporaries. The sharp shoulder and
squat powder space reminds me of the 'Ackley Improved' series. P.O. Ackley thought
we could take most standard rounds and make the shoulder sharper and the powder
room a bit bigger, instantly improving performance. In almost every case it worked.
The 7.5x55 might have been built by Mister Ackley. It's every bit as powerful as
the 30-06, while also having the easy to find accuracy of the .308. In addition,
it functions smoothly with the unusual straight pull K-31 action.





As usual, the measuring arsenal includes an RCBS 10-10 scale, Mitutoyo micrometers,
Central vernior calipers, some other assorted goodies, and a large cup of coffee.
Starbucks beans, ground at home, drip type coffee maker. A shlop of cream
in a big cup, and we are good to go.

GP-11 7.5x55mm is brass cased with a magnetic steel jacketed bullet. The bullet
core is solid lead with no voids, and seems very well bonded to the jacket.
Several bullets were sacrificed to the cutting wheel (monkey curiosity strikes again!).







A feature of the GP-11 noticed by most people immediately is the unusual sealer
applied to the bullet/case junction. Unique in my experience, the Swiss painted
on a heavy band of wax. While it's not uniform by any means, the sample I looked
at had wax about .012"thick and .030" wide.



This wax seal was easily removed with nothing more than a rough towel and a bit of pressure.
It's a soft wax, even 25+ years after it was applied. Once removed it revealed
a very heavy bullet crimp. Looking for all the world like a 'LEE factory crimp' its
a very firm and uniform crimping of the case into the bullet cannelure.
Many precision shooters swear by a crimp to encourage consistent powder burn.



Two questions came popping into mind while looking at this wax...
(a) Where does it go when the rifle is fired? Is it perchance smeared down the case
walls, making extraction easier? If this is the case, why hasn't a problem with 7.5
handloads in the K-31 surfaced (tough extraction)?
(b) Could it be possible that this wax sealer serves to center the round in the
chamber? This might help account for the phenomenal accuracy of the cartridge.

It's time to look at some case dimensions.......................
In the run up to writing this, someone mentioned "It's going to be boring...."
Friends and neighbors, why would someone say this is going to be boring?
Because when we see the same thing every time, there's nothing interesting
going on. This ammunition saves everything interesting for the range, and
nothing for the load bench. It's so uniform that no time was wasted making
graphs. If the reader wants flat lines..... check out the average politicians
brain scan.



The largest variation was found in overall loaded cartridge weight, mostly due
to the non-uniform wax sealer. Weight spread was 415.5 grains to 420.2 grains.
About 2.2 grains of that can be accounted for with case weight variations, and
another 0.5 grains in bullet variations. The rest seems to be the wax.

Over all length measurements were the most boring of all. It measured 3.045" Exactly.
No variation, *0*, Nada, Zilch, Sigh........

Case base diameter measured from .4941" to .4952", a .0009 variation. The horror
of it! Almost a thousandth of an inch! Those crazy drunken Swiss!

Case neck diameters ranged from .3360" to .3372", a variation of .0012" This
was of course measured after the wax was removed. The variation seems to be
due to the very firm crimp distorting the case slightly. Still minimal by military
ammunition standards, and certainly not bad at all by commercial standards.
There was almost zero variation found in neck diameter. They were round.

Case length began at 2.180" and ended at 2.184", a range of .004. This measurement
found no wild fliers, but was spread evenly across the range.

Tearing down the ten round sample, we find this:



The bullets pulled from the case with extreme force. The first one took four attempts,
till I realized a 'pull' was not going to do it, and a 'jerk' would be required. (Please
hold all jokes till the end of the article!). Even so, many bullets required two or three
attempts to get them out of the case. Not because they are glued in, but simply
that very heavy crimp set deep into the cannelure.

The powder appears quite fresh. It's an extruded grain not unlike IMR 4895, but with
a shorter grain. In grain size it looks like AA2015br powder, but has the same shiny
coating 'look' that IMR stick powders have.





Powder charges weighed in from 49.9 grains all the way to a whopping 50.1 grains.
A 0.2 grain variation. You graph it, I'm going to take a nap.

Once pulled down, cases were weighed. They ranged from 193.2 grains to 195.5 grains.
This is a variation of 2.2 grains, and the largest spread of any single component.
The cases were mirror bright inside. Berdan primed, the twin flash holes were very
clear in the flat base inside the case. Looking at the pristine flat base inside the case,
a question came: How in the world did the Swiss form the anvil for the Berdan primer
while leaving the inside of the case flat?

Using the wildly dangerous torch trick to blow out the live primer (nothing too dangerous
in search of data for our readers!), an extremely uniform primer pocket was found.
In fact, the pocket appeared to be milled rather than punched. If so, this is incredible
precision and care for a military round. The flash holes also appear to be drilled
rather than punched. Stunning quality and meticulousness for a military round!



The bullet, as stated, is a steel jacketed number with a lead core. Full metal jacket
with a strong boat tail. Weights ranged from 174.3 to 174.8 grains, a 0.5 grain spread.
Most notable were the diameter variations: Only .0004". The bullets measured from
.3076" to .3080", and were perfectly round. No variation at all in diameter was found.





It would be an interesting day at the range, passing a few handfuls of this ammo across
a chronograph. By all reports, this is the most accurate standard military ammunition
built, and frequently wins matches. Perhaps that has something to do with the general
lament over the *lack* of GP-11. What supplies that do show up, vanish almost
instantly. In fact, if anyone has a case they'd like to contribute to the cause, I'll
happily continue testing it!

• Quote

Post by Rapidrob » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:33 pm
Since the original posting of this article is long gone, the statement about the wax ring has an answer. The wax ring is vaporized when the cartridge is fired and coats the bore. This will do several things. It lubes the bore to help the steel jacketed bullet traverse the rifles bore with less friction. It keeps the powder fouling softer than a dry bore. This helps reduce corrosion. The grease aids in the cleaning the bore after firing. Since fired cases are dry to the touch once fired the wax may not help with extraction. It you shoot the cartridge with a piece of cardboard closely off to one side of the muzzle,there is wax on the cardboard.

On the old SRF we did an experiment mixing the wax and loading the case with a similar weight and type match bullet. A wax "ring" was made by using a heated wax mix and a small needle syringe. It did work, but unneeded due to our bullet jacket material. Plus there was so much surplus 7.5 GP11 ammo for sale at the time it was time consuming.

I know of no other ammo loaded for a military that is as consistent or of such a high quality as Swiss GP11.
I have not shot,nor know anyone who has shot the "new" made GP11 replacement ammo in 7.5 Swiss. [Edit - RUAG in Switzerland made a 'new run' of an estimated 26 miilion rounds of so-called New-GP11 in Fall of 2017. I have yet to hear that any has left Switzerland. RUAG UK denied its very existence, in spite of being shown a flyer from the Swiss factory trumpeting the production]

Tin Can Sailor
'Nam Vet
NRA Endowment Member
President New Mexico Military Surplus Rifle Pistol Shooters

 

[Aero Denezol]

GP11 is the most accurate, most consistent milsurp cartridge I have ever fired.