Just when you thought AOC couldn't get any stupider....

[Flopsweat]

If the mentally challenged or unstable whatever you want to say… are presented with options it may help… also if we started giving their relatives options for help it can also help.

I haven't really researched what works. We do know for sure that pretending it's not a problem doesn't, so there's some data.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Then why has crime continued to decline since Reagan defunded the mental institutions?

Depends on the crime your looking at! Drug use is at an all time high, violent crimes are way up, so I'm not seeing a correlation between a decline in crimes now vs then!
One also needs to look at the ratio of folks then vs now it may only look like crime has declined, but with the population much bigger, the ratio would be off! Just a thought!

 

[Ura-Ki]

Look at the massive influx of serious drugs among certain groups, how is that effecting the situation? How much of that is also a mental health problem?

 

[Mikej]

Depends on the crime your looking at! Drug use is at an all time high, violent crimes are way up, so I'm not seeing a correlation between a decline in crimes now vs then!
One also needs to look at the ratio of folks then vs now it may only look like crime has declined, but with the population much bigger, the ratio would be off! Just a thought!

I believe there's much less crime now. If the victims don't report it. If the police don't AREEST and CHARGE people that commit crimes. If they decriminalize a bunch of crimes. Voila! "Less Crime"! LOOKS like the progressive way is, THE WAY!

They live in Portland, 23rd to be precise. I quote:

"Areas of Portland are a bubblegum show, but I've never actually seen anyone shooting up on the street. Walking around I looked and realized I was seeing a guy, sitting in a car, putting a needle in his arm!"

If you are talking NE 23rd, well, there is a very large area in Irvington where there is little or no sign of what this city has turned into.

 

[Flopsweat]

Depends on the crime your looking at! Drug use is at an all time high, violent crimes are way up, so I'm not seeing a correlation between a decline in crimes now vs then!
One also needs to look at the ratio of folks then vs now it may only look like crime has declined, but with the population much bigger, the ratio would be off! Just a thought!

Look at the massive influx of serious drugs among certain groups, how is that effecting the situation? How much of that is also a mental health problem?

These are good points. The trend was downward for a long time. I honestly thought we were learning to be better people. Sadly, it's turned back upward again recently. I'm tempted to blame it on rising fanaticism that encourages rioting, looting and killing, along with the recent influx of criminals and drugs. There are probably a lot of other factors as well.

 

[BBQ Guy]

Interesting observation from a young (early 30s) relative just a couple of nights ago. He was over for dinner, and had spent the holiday weekend with his woman outside Eugene at a camp ground/cabin resort/whatever. Yurts, teepees and such. Said it was great, nice people, good food, quiet at night. Overall a great time.

They went into Eugene during the day, and stayed for drinks one night. He said it was astounding how much worse than Portland it was. (!?!) More tents and bums. More bad activity. They live in Portland, 23rd to be precise. I quote:

"Areas of Portland are a bubblegum show, but I've never actually seen anyone shooting up on the street. Walking around I looked and realized I was seeing a guy, sitting in a car, putting a needle in his arm!"

I told him about hearing a while ago, on OPB (of course!), how the PDX response team was going to be modeled after the Very Successful And Effective organization that had been Working Well for in years in... Eugene.

We laughed.

If he lives the NW area I wouldn't say that's a reasonable representation of the rest of the city. Which you did note.
Summer and fall of 2019 I used to walk/run to the gym. During those expeditions I saw people shooting up, smoking meth/crack, drinking, and defecating in public. They put an outhouse under the 205 overpass a year ago. It's been tipped over several times. W/in the last 3 weeks it was burned to the ground and the city has not cleaned up the remaining bio hazard.
Mostly in or around the 205 overpass at Mt Scott Blvd and Johnson Creek area. I have also passed by domestic quarrels along along 92nd at Crystal Springs.

You all talk about choices.
These folks are continuing to choose to stay on the streets. I have seen multiple outreach programs at these camps. Serving food, delivering clothing, and new tents/bedding. They have lots of choices. However they are still on the streets.
Pick em up, shackle them, triage them, process wants and warrants, house the insane, institute a zero tolerance policy.
If they are picked up again put them on work crews fixing roads, picking up garbage, cleaning existing camps, and any other civil service projects that cost tax payers millions.

 

[Flopsweat]

If he lives the NW area I wouldn't say that's a reasonable representation of the rest of the city. Which you did note.
Summer and fall of 2019 I used to walk/run to the gym. During those expeditions I saw people shooting up, smoking meth/crack, drinking, and defecating in public. They put an outhouse under the 205 overpass a year ago. It's been tipped over several times. W/in the last 3 weeks it was burned to the ground and the city has not cleaned up the remaining bio hazard.
Mostly in or around the 205 overpass at Mt Scott Blvd and Johnson Creek area. I have also passed by domestic quarrels along along 92nd at Crystal Springs.

You all talk about choices.
These folks are continuing to choose to stay on the streets. I have seen multiple outreach programs at these camps. Serving food, delivering clothing, and new tents/bedding. They have lots of choices. However they are still on the streets.
Pick em up, shackle them, triage them, process wants and warrants, house the insane, institute a zero tolerance policy.
If they are picked up again put them on work crews fixing roads, picking up garbage, cleaning existing camps, and any other civil service projects that cost tax payers millions.

It might be a little harsh but it's miles better than doing nothing.

 

[Soli]

If the mentally challenged or unstable whatever you want to say… are presented with options it may help… also if we started giving their relatives options for help it can also help.

The mentally ill are presented with nothing but options. Not meaning to sound harsh to your post. Their families are not, especially after the kids reach majority. Which is ideally as it should be; adults make their own decisions.

We - the culture - are dealing with the fallout of paralysis of action we should take for/to people making bad choices. The left's (and the libertarian right lots of times) answer is "there are no bad choices that society has the right to sanction." Not really of course, murder, etc. But if we're speaking sincerely we must admit that "there are no bad choices" has become the default for how we look at things. "You do you." "You have no right to judge me." To do otherwise makes you a busy body at best, at least "phobic" or lol "just uptight", and an "oppressor" at worst.

(Which again is understandable in a free society. Hell, I largely defended that view for years! You're not the boss of me! lol... sigh...)

Nowhere is this more apparent than how we handle mental illness. Ask people actually in the field and the answer is immediate: involuntary commitment. They'll say it works, many times for the person being treated and always for the protection of society. But they'll also say they can't do it because of the rules against it. And they'll often be torn, ethically. What right does anyone have to force anyone to do... anything, really? For "their own good?" LMAO, everyone with a brain knows the bacon grease soaked slope THAT is. For the good of society? Again, very slippery as EVERY tyrant crushes certain people "for the good of society."

So here we sit. Paralyzed.

Being old now my personal view has changed. A lot. You drop trow and bubblegum in the street, you get locked up. Yeah, get you treatment if you're nuts, whether you like it or not. If you can change into a better person (ie, someone who doesn't bubblegum in traffic), good. If not, you don't get to go onto the street at all.

Unsophisticated. Simplistic. Definitely not "empathetic." lol Too old to care what the masses think. Because beyond that I got nuthin'.

 

[BBQ Guy]

Then why has crime continued to decline since Reagan defunded the mental institutions?

Because we have decriminalized a slew of offenses. Up to and including drug sales and possession.
Coupled with smaller police forces.

Why should I call the police if they aren't going to respond?....

If it's not reported with the use of a call and an online report(that's what is done by the victim now) then no crime happened.

You understand why crime has supposedly declined now?...

 

[slimmer13]

Because we have decriminalized a slew of offenses. Up to and including drug sales and possession.
Coupled with smaller police forces.

Why should I call the police if they aren't going to respond?....

If it's not reported with the use of a call and an online report(that's what is done by the victim now) then no crime happened.

You understand why crime has supposedly declined now?...

Violent crimes and homicides have not been decriminalized, nor has been significantly underreported. Crime across the board has fallen dramatically since the 90's.

Deinstitutionalization happened in the 80s. There doesn't seem to be a correlation.

I'm not saying mental health doesn't drive some crime. Clearly if you drive through Seattle or Portland, you see many sick people that commit crimes at an alarming rate. I'm also not saying we shouldn't be spending money on mental health. I'm saying AOC is full of bubblegum saying if we stopped spending money on incarceration, and spent it on mental health, it would significantly impact the crime rates in a positive way.

 

[Hop Sing]

What a good thread this turned out to be - lots of great discussion!

 

[Ura-Ki]

Violent crimes and homicides have not been decriminalized, nor has been significantly underreported. Crime across the board has fallen dramatically since the 90's.

Deinstitutionalization happened in the 80s. There doesn't seem to be a correlation.

I'm not saying mental health doesn't drive some crime. Clearly if you drive through Seattle or Portland, you see many sick people that commit crimes at an alarming rate. I'm also not saying we shouldn't be spending money on mental health. I'm saying AOC is full of bubblegum saying if we stopped spending money on incarceration, and spent it on mental health, it would significantly impact the crime rates in a positive way.

Bingo your last point is where I think we all agree! And I think A.O.C ( as much as it pains me to say) is correct, take a lot of what we spend on prisons and apply that toward mental health and I bet we see positive changes!

 

[Ura-Ki]

I bet we could move the needle further is we actually shut down the trafficking of drugs, especially in the cities where things are so bad! Once we can separate the drug addicts from those with mental health issues, I bet we see major changes!

 

[Flopsweat]

Violent crimes and homicides have not been decriminalized, nor has been significantly underreported. Crime across the board has fallen dramatically since the 90's.

Deinstitutionalization happened in the 80s. There doesn't seem to be a correlation.

I'm not saying mental health doesn't drive some crime. Clearly if you drive through Seattle or Portland, you see many sick people that commit crimes at an alarming rate. I'm also not saying we shouldn't be spending money on mental health. I'm saying AOC is full of bubblegum saying if we stopped spending money on incarceration, and spent it on mental health, it would significantly impact the crime rates in a positive way.

I also credit the Broken Windows Theory. You let the place go to pot, it keeps right on going. Let the winos sleep downtown and more will come. Buy them tents and they'll start crapping in the alleys. Legalize heroine and they'll start shooting up in public and going zombie psycho in broad daylight in the middle of town.

That and we have a huge problem with weak prosecutors and judges. A lot of the serious crimes these days are committed by people who would still be in jail by any normal standard - by the very standards we had only a few years ago. It's important to be nice to people and try to be patient, but it's equally important to be pragmatic and effective. Lately it seems like we're really not doing any of those things.

 

[Mikej]

I have also passed by domestic quarrels along along 92nd at Crystal Springs.

Wasn't that you that, three weeks/month ago, witnessed first hand, a domestic chubbing down on SE Hawthorn around 11th ave?

 

[BBQ Guy]

Wasn't that you that, three weeks/month ago, witnessed first hand, a domestic chubbing down on SE Hawthorn around 11th ave?

No.
That particular incident I suggested pictures were needed and some cheerleading for the parties involved.

 

[BBQ Guy]

I also credit the Broken Windows Theory. You let the place go to pot, it keeps right on going. Let the winos sleep downtown and more will come. Buy them tents and they'll start crapping in the alleys. Legalize heroine and they'll start shooting up in public and going zombie psycho in broad daylight in the middle of town.

That and we have a huge problem with weak prosecutors and judges. A lot of the serious crimes these days are committed by people who would still be in jail by any normal standard - by the very standards we had only a few years ago. It's important to be nice to people and try to be patient, but it's equally important to be pragmatic and effective. Lately it seems like we're really not doing any of those things.

Spot on with the broken windows theory.
1000% correct that judges and prosecutors share a large portion of responsibility for doing the right thing.

 

[Ura-Ki]

Spot on with the broken windows theory.
1000% correct that judges and prosecutors share a large portion of responsibility for doing the right thing.

Yup! Look at that convicted murderer Jeremy Christenson, dude was well known to be seriously messed up, had done time once already, and that messed him up even more! That dude should never been allowed to exist in public under any terms, and he proved that point a few times before he killed those two and seriously hurt the third! this was clearly a case of people trying to be nice, and forgetting this was a seriously unstable/dangerous person!

 

[BBQ Guy]

Yup! Look at that convicted murderer Jeremy Christenson, dude was well known to be seriously messed up, had done time once already, and that messed him up even more! That dude should never been allowed to exist in public under any terms, and he proved that point a few times before he killed those two and seriously hurt the third! this was clearly a case of people trying to be nice, and forgetting this was a seriously unstable/dangerous person!

It'd be interesting to look at conviction/release stats tied escalating severity of crimes and which judges/lawyers are tied to them.
I bet there are skeletons to be discovered...

If you could demonstrate a severe disregard for public safety related to the judges and lawyers involved with some of these folks that are allowed to re-enter society repeatedly until they kill someone, would folks finally listen?....

 

[Ura-Ki]

It'd be interesting to look at conviction/release stats tied escalating severity of crimes and which judges/lawyers are tied to them.
I bet there are skeletons to be discovered...

If you could demonstrate a severe disregard for public safety related to the judges and lawyers involved with some of these folks that are allowed to re-enter society repeatedly until they kill someone, would folks finally listen?....

I know in the case listed above, there was some controversy involving this dude and his conditions of release, though I don't remember the specifics!