Invite to participate in hunting study??

[Andy54Hawken]

@RKP
Thanks for posting your letter and the reply.
Andy

 

[66PonyCar]

Here's your man. Note his title.

 

[Yarome]

More info on this study.

I emailed the guy doing this study with some questions and got a reply. It sounds like an unbiased research project.
Here is our communications:
My letter:
"Leland,

It is unclear to me what it is you are looking to achieve with the results of this study. What do you mean by "best practices"? Is the goal to obtain data to restrict the types of ammunition used or the methods to humanly kill game animals?
Are you a hunter? What experience do you have in putting meat in the freezer to feed your family?
What is your field of study at PSU?
Is this study funded by or supported by an outside organization or company? If so, who are they and what interest to they have in the data results?


I look forward to your reply,
Ron"

His reply:
"Ron,

This research is intended to improve the data available to hunters when selecting hunting ammunition. There is no intent to pursue regulations.

I am a hunter, both personally and worked for almost a decade on invasive species management projects (feral pigs, goats, etc.). I have dealt with selecting hunting bullets for a variety of firearms and the lack of research on performance has been frustrating me for years. I began talking about conducting a study like this close to a decade ago, and finally it came together, and PSU accepted me into the graduate biology program.

This study is a collaborative effort between ODFW, PSU, and the Oregon Zoo. It's a bit of an odd group, but all involved agreed on the importance of hunting within the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, and the intent to share the information with hunters to assist in selecting bullets for harvesting game.

Hope that helps,
Leland"

1. Does there seriously need to be a formal "study" on ammo performance? I mean... people have been taking game without issue for how many hundreds of years? How many ammo reviews, ballistics tests and performance comparisons are already available on the internet for each and every make and caliber on the market? A wealth and degree of readily accessible information never known before by previous generations... yet... they were still perfectly capable of putting heat on their tables. Curious... hu!

2. ODFW is not always a hunters friend. They push a number of leftist policies and proposals that adversely impact hunting rights and privilege's. They also are the ones pushing for lead ammo prohibitions, support wolf re-introduction, etc....

3. Having that data in a nice neat pile... even if the originating researchers intentions are honorable... does anyone doubt or honestly believe it won't be disseminated and may be used against hunters? He (Leland) may have no intent to pursue regulations, but you dang well know it's clearly on other peoples agenda (to include ODFW)... and any data those organizations can lay hands on may easily be twisted against us.

IE., "These are the commonly used bullet types and calibers among hunters. These non lead projectile ballistics are comparable so there will be no adverse affect on hunters to ban all other types of ammo."

Just sayin....

 

[Yarome]

Here's your man. Note his title.

View attachment 1471867

EXACTLY!! "I have no agenda".... my stink hole...

The fact that his response was less than completely honest about his motivations.. and downright manipulative, IMHO... makes it all the more cringe worthy.

 

[66PonyCar]

Well heck the Oregon Zoo has a whole program devoted to Non-Lead Hunting.

Non-Lead Hunting Education Program

Addressing a critical conservation issueLead has long been recognized as a hazard to humans and wildlife.

www.oregonzoo.org

 

[malakajim]

I got this survey request today. I'm thinking of responding. Not sure which way I want to skew my answers; everything killed with a .54 lead round ball or everything wounded with a 7.62x39 steel core round.

Not that I hunt with either of those calibers, but F him anyhow.

 

[awags_86]

Here's your man. Note his title.

View attachment 1471867

I bet he's a huge Ryan Busse fan.

 

[awags_86]

I strongly encourage everyone to take part in these studies and just absolutely dog on non lead bullets "damn thing bounced off the deer"

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I got this survey request today. I'm thinking of responding. Not sure which way I want to skew my answers; everything killed with a .54 lead round ball or everything wounded with a 7.62x39 steel core round.

Not that I hunt with either of those calibers, but F him anyhow.

Most of my hunting is with a .54 lead round ball , fired from my Hawken.
Grouse...
Coyote...
Antelope...
Deer...
Elk...
Black Bear...
All with 80 - 100 grains of black powder , patch and round ball.
All also have been pass through... no round ball has been recovered...so no lead in the offal or the like .
Andy

 

[dplev4]

I got the invite as well. Started to try and answer, but the questions were at first general and the specific making my responses effectively non-sequiturs. Arguably they went from general hunting to whatever was your most recent hunt. I could not get my answers to make sense so I gave up.

I think the point of the "study" is to provide "quantitative" evidence that lead ammunition is not more effective than non-lead (steel and copper is my guess). So then Oregon can ban lead ammunition …like they would need a study to do that…

 

[malakajim]

Most of my hunting is with a .54 lead round ball , fired from my Hawken.
Grouse...
Coyote...
Antelope...
Deer...
Elk...
Black Bear...
All with 80 - 100 grains of black powder , patch and round ball.
All also have been pass through... no round ball has been recovered...so no lead in the offal or the like .
Andy

Yeah, you're the inspiration for the .54 caliber.

Thanks teacher!

 

[Caveman Jim]

Oregon Zoo… Run Ron, RUNNNNNNNNN!!!
From the movie Forrest Gump.

 

[OZ_hunt]

Hi all,

Leland Brown here. Someone emailed me a link to this thread. Figured since you all had questions I could try to answer a few of them. Maybe we can get some of the conspiracy theories off the table.

I've been working on making sure Oregon doesn't move to a regulatory approach around non-lead bullets since I was hired in 2015. When I was hired I told the interview panel that I would not work on bans, but would only partner with the hunting community to support voluntary choices. That includes working closely with ODFW, OHA, RMEF, BHA and any other hunting group to support hunting, provide the best possible information on bullet performance to hunters, and supporting the voluntary choice of ammunition. I'm very proud of the fact that we've been able to build some good programs that give people access to information that is otherwise hard to find and we've been able to stay away from regulation or legislation to force people to change. I just don't think that's the right way to go.

I have been using non-lead bullets for 13 years and have had good success with them, both while conducting invasive removal work on feral pigs and goats, and in my personal hunting. That said, every time I attend a sports show or do a range day I hear stories about bullets failing to work as intended, both lead and non-lead bullets. I've been lucky in that I've been able to test a ton of different bullets through ballistic gel which gives me a decent idea of how they compare. Ballistic gels are great, but realistic field testing needs to happen to show when and where bullets are or aren't working, and hopefully identify where they can be improved. Even a controlled test on live animals (which would never be approved by an oversight committee) would not be as useful as field testing. Personally, I'm don't like relying on marketing or media on bullet performance. I'd like to see some real data on performance. Some of the best I find is on forums because you don't have the influence of marketing on the discussion.

While working doing invasive species removal, we had to select bullets for hunting which isn't really a problem, we have plenty of experience choosing bullets that kill things. The issue is that there is little to no data in the scientific literature to support staff in that selection, and that leaves agencies in a vulnerable position. An organization that opposed the removal could (and has) argue that the selection of ammunition is "inhumane" and attempt to stop the removal work. Without data to support the decision it becomes a much more likely that a lawsuit can move forward. I've spoken with several agencies that conduct removal work, and they really want this type of data on bullet performance to support their work.

To be honest, I completely understand the skepticism. Hopefully this helps a bit in thinking about the project. Good luck this season.

 

[Mikej]

This is a Deja vu moment. Even if you are doing what you say you are, It is entirely possible that the state will drop you like a hot rock just before they ban lead everywhere in the outdoors. It's the nature of their type.
I know this, and I'm not even a hunter. I'm a former fisherman that used to enjoy some great fisheries before the state and salmon huggers ruined them.

 

[Koda]

Its not a conspiracy theory, there is a movement to ban lead hunting ammo. It has been done in california.

So if I read this right, this study has as much or more to do with invasive removal projects?
Any group that would claim hunting invasive species with lead ammo is "inhumane" is a group that will ban lead ammo...

 

[jrmh]

Reply back and tell them that you identify as a gift card, and that your major weakness is that you don't have enough gift cards.

I just received an email asking me to participate in a survey being conducted by a PSU student.The fact sheet he asked to fill out is titled:
"Evaluating Hunting Bullet Terminal Performance in Real World Conditions Data Recording Form:
Bear"
The description is:
"Our team would like to invite you to participate in a survey that records the outcome of your big game harvest (e.g., a successful hunt. Gathering information on species, cartridge, range, and animal behavior is important to understand best practices for effectively and humanely harvesting wildlife. Currently, there is no consensus on "best practices" and increased knowledge will benefit both hunters and managers."

What is your opinion?

tell them to f off and that you tried copper bullets and the bear ate you and kidnapped your baby momma.

 

[jrmh]

Its not a conspiracy theory, there is a movement to ban lead hunting ammo. It has been done in california.

So if I read this right, this study has as much or more to do with invasive removal projects?
Any group that would claim hunting invasive species with lead ammo is "inhumane" is a group that will ban lead ammo...

yeah they only hurt animals though because copper and zinc do not have as good of ballistic properties. hundreds of years of innovation and lead has stayed for a reason. also libs excel in wishful thinking without thought.

 

[jrmh]

More info on this study.

I emailed the guy doing this study with some questions and got a reply. It sounds like an unbiased research project.
Here is our communications:
My letter:
"Leland,

It is unclear to me what it is you are looking to achieve with the results of this study. What do you mean by "best practices"? Is the goal to obtain data to restrict the types of ammunition used or the methods to humanly kill game animals?
Are you a hunter? What experience do you have in putting meat in the freezer to feed your family?
What is your field of study at PSU?
Is this study funded by or supported by an outside organization or company? If so, who are they and what interest to they have in the data results?


I look forward to your reply,
Ron"

His reply:
"Ron,

This research is intended to improve the data available to hunters when selecting hunting ammunition. There is no intent to pursue regulations.

I am a hunter, both personally and worked for almost a decade on invasive species management projects (feral pigs, goats, etc.). I have dealt with selecting hunting bullets for a variety of firearms and the lack of research on performance has been frustrating me for years. I began talking about conducting a study like this close to a decade ago, and finally it came together, and PSU accepted me into the graduate biology program.

This study is a collaborative effort between ODFW, PSU, and the Oregon Zoo. It's a bit of an odd group, but all involved agreed on the importance of hunting within the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation, and the intent to share the information with hunters to assist in selecting bullets for harvesting game.

Hope that helps,
Leland"

he could be deceiving you but it sounds like he may have good intentions.

This is a Deja vu moment. Even if you are doing what you say you are, It is entirely possible that the state will drop you like a hot rock just before they ban lead everywhere in the outdoors. It's the nature of their type.
I know this, and I'm not even a hunter. I'm a former fisherman that used to enjoy some great fisheries before the state and salmon huggers ruined them.

 

[Caveman Jim]

@OZ_hunt said
"I've spoken with several agencies that conduct removal work, and they really want this type of data on bullet performance to support their work."

This removal work item, does that mean removing lead from hunting bullets or the removal of invasive species?
A lot of animals have been killed for centuries with lead bullets, are they wanting to change that?

 

[Tlock]

@OZ_hunt said
"I've spoken with several agencies that conduct removal work, and they really want this type of data on bullet performance to support their work."

This removal work item, does that mean removing lead from hunting bullets or the removal of invasive species?
A lot of animals have been killed for centuries with lead bullets, are they wanting to change that?

Non lead bullets suck for animal removal....we don't want the data and it does nothing to support our work. Years back they tried to get us (usda) to go lead free.....exactly 1 nutria shoot and 1 pigeon shoot and our mind was made up!