Improving Extreme Spread

[P7M13]

I chuck the case in a Lee trim holder in my hand drill, set the propane torch to a 1in tall blue flame, roatate the neck shoulder for 5 to 8 seconds (depending on case size) or a red glow.

Seems your technique is just fine. If you see red you've over-annealed. No biggie. The glow at 900°F is barely visible in low light.

I havent put these two areas together on this.
Im using H4350 and my guess is its virtually the same as IMR4350?

IIRC, H4350 is very temperature stable, while IMR4350 is less so. They are definitely not the same powder. I don't worry about temperature stability because I'm not trying to shoot the wings off a fly.

 

[Koda]

Seems your technique is just fine. If you see red you've over-annealed. No biggie. The glow at 900°F is barely visible in low light.

thats probably the part thats most inconsistent.
Ive read different opinions on over annealing.
I dim the lights to help see the glow. I count to 5 or 8 and quench but theres usually a faint glow on the neck. How hot each case neck gets I have no idea and no way to tell. It should be as consistent as this method can get

 

[P7M13]

thats probably the part thats most inconsistent.
Ive read different opinions on over annealing.
I dim the lights to help see the glow. I count to 5 or 8 and quench but theres usually a faint glow on the neck. How hot each case neck gets I have no idea and no way to tell. It should be as consistent as this method can get

Did you see Erik Cortina's video on over annealing? He got them a nice, cherry red (~1400°F). As I recall, it didn't affect his POI.
Once you've removed the crystal boundaries in the brass, heating more doesn't damage the brass or hurt it. The issue you may run into is de-zincifying the brass with the heat.
When I did it by hand, I'd aim the torch at approximately mid-shoulder and anneal both the neck and shoulder. Low light too.
I bought an auto annealer off a member here and I've done a bunch of mods to it to get the best anneal it can offer. My last mod will be using a jeweler's silver solder torch tip that is fed from compressed air and propane. It will give excellent, pinpoint heat.

 

[Koda]

Did you see Erik Cortina's video on over annealing? He got them a nice, cherry red (~1400°F). As I recall, it didn't affect his POI.
Once you've removed the crystal boundaries in the brass, heating more doesn't damage the brass or hurt it. The issue you may run into is de-zincifying the brass with the heat.
When I did it by hand, I'd aim the torch at approximately mid-shoulder and anneal both the neck and shoulder. Low light too.
I bought an auto annealer off a member here and I've done a bunch of mods to it to get the best anneal it can offer. My last mod will be using a jeweler's silver solder torch tip that is fed from compressed air and propane. It will give excellent, pinpoint heat.

I did see Eriks annealing video and that one was the one that gave me confidence to try hand annealing.... I couldnt eff it up anyways.
by counting to 5 I get the start of the red glow and stop, my guess is im not over annealling if thats even possible.

 

[Stomper]

I did see Eriks annealing video and that one was the one that gave me confidence to try hand annealing.... I couldnt eff it up anyways.
by counting to 5 I get the start of the red glow and stop, my guess is im not over annealling if thats even possible.

Since you admit to being… anal, get yourself an anneal-eez…. oh, and wear a hair net, it'll change your life!


Little video I made around 3yrs ago….

 

[Koda]

Since you admit to being… anal, get yourself an anneal-eez…. oh, and wear a hair net, it'll change your life!


Little video I made around 3yrs ago….

That only looks like about 2 seconds of flame. Is that all they need to properly anneal?

 

[Stomper]

That only looks like about 2 seconds of flame. Is that all they need to properly anneal?

It's all relative to the flame intensity, distance from the flame, etc. It's about 3 seconds just before the flame turns orange (which is the zinc being burned from the brass alloy) and they're just about perfect, but the MAIN thing is they're perfectly consistent with one another which is what I believe you're striving for.

 

[Longwalkhome]

To get the best ES it takes everything being as close as possible shot after shot.

Barrel of the gun has to have the same amount of fouling.

Throat has to be the same.

Ammo has to be as good as you can make it.

Weather be it heat or humidity has to be the same

Quality of your chronograph has to be good

Sun light for the bullet shadow in the chronograph has to be the same.

You will get what you get by the amount of effort you put into it, is it worth the effort?

 

[Member 34319]

Ok, I am no longer reloading, but I learned a lot of stuff over the almost 20 years I did.

Brass, don't do small batches. Process it in as big of volumes as you can. This way most if not all of your brass is the same and can be readily stored in the same way as loaded ammo in the same cases. Trimming in large quantities helps keep things consistent. It also helps to have tools that are not consistently changed to other calibers. IE, don't be changing anything, if you need to buy another trimmer to have it set for one load, do so.

If spreads are the concern, weigh and separate brass after the above by headstamp and weight. This will remove the internal volume issue from the equation as best as possible without checking internals with water volume.

Buy a better scale. I recommend US Solid, I didn't look for the exact model, look around on there there are 2-3 models that weigh in grains down to 0.0001. https://ussolid.com/u-s-solid-0-001...MIv7-rv8yJgAMV8R-tBh2snQOyEAQYASABEgKBEfD_BwE

Buy a trickler. Getting that last .001or less is crucial.

But a micro meter seating stem, if they are available for your die set. This will allow easy adjustment of .1 to .001 in seating depths.

Do everything separately, if you are using the same die to size as well as deprime, get a universal decapper die. Don't seat and crimp using the same die, get a crimping die. Keep dies set or locked in their places and don't be constantly changing or adjusting them.

Take breaks. Don't try to shoot all 5 of 10 different latter loads all at once. Bring a rimfire rifle to dick around with in between strings to let the gun cool.

Be aware of heat and cold weather and if it will play a factor in your powder choices.

Best of all, have fun and don't worry if it takes a few times to get there. It took me the better part of a decade to get to the more precise stuff.

 

[Koda]

To get the best ES it takes everything being as close as possible shot after shot.

Barrel of the gun has to have the same amount of fouling.

Throat has to be the same.

Ammo has to be as good as you can make it.

Weather be it heat or humidity has to be the same

Quality of your chronograph has to be good

Sun light for the bullet shadow in the chronograph has to be the same.

You will get what you get by the amount of effort you put into it, is it worth the effort?

The environmental elements I wasn't considering, this is helpful.

 

[Koda]

If spreads are the concern, weigh and separate brass after the above by headstamp and weight. This will remove the internal volume issue from the equation as best as possible without checking internals with water volume.

I'm aware some weigh and sort brass (and bullets) maybe it's time I start doing that. Good tip.

 

[Member 34319]

I'm aware some weigh and sort brass (and bullets) maybe it's time I start doing that. Good tip.

It's all about consistency. 0.01 extra weight in the same brand brass might equal enough pressure difference to push a bullet at a different speed vs the next. A 0.1 difference in bullet weight could equate to more pressure needed to push it at the same speed as the bullet before it.

 

[saxon]

How ragged? A Ruger 9mm carbine will do a 1" ragged hole at 50 yards with Winchester white box.

less then 1/2"

 

[Mono1]

less then 1/2"

But thats at 50.

 

[saxon]

But thats at 50.

less than, .308 one ragged hole .400 ish
but then the load i have that has around 8 es gives me a group of 3/4 inch

 

[Koda]

less than, .308 one ragged hole .400 ish
but then the load i have that has around 8 es gives me a group of 3/4 inch

what did you do to get your ES down to 8?

 

[Koda]

so tonight I weighed some brass, 26 samples of 6.5Gredel, starline brass.
lowest 109.6gn, highest 111.9gn.... thats a weight ES of 2.3grains.

I dont know if case weight correlates to case volume but wouldnt that range affect ES?

 

[BigGame]

Koda,

There are some good suggestions in this thread. In general, it sounds like you have a good process and I believe you when you say you're meticulous. You can alway improve by spending more money (better scale, dies, mandrels for neck tension…), but we all want to get the most out of our current setup.

I have a few questions.

You said 3 of your 4 rifles are new. Do they have at least 100 rounds down the bore before settling on your current load? If not, you may need to tweak your charge after the bore has settled.

And regarding the charge, how did you arrive at it? Did you run a charge test to find the node where velocity and ES were most consistent? Along with consistent ignition, this is the big one for controlling ES.

Last, did you run seating depth tests? I know you're shooting Hammer Bullets and they're less sensitive to depth changes, but I have consistently been able to refine them with testing (I shoot Hammers). This is a secondary effect on ES, but it will affect it.

 

[Koda]

Koda,

There are some good suggestions in this thread. In general, it sounds like you have a good process and I believe you when you say you're meticulous. You can alway improve by spending more money (better scale, dies, mandrels for neck tension…), but we all want to get the most out of our current setup.

I have a few questions.

You said 3 of your 4 rifles are new. Do they have at least 100 rounds down the bore before settling on your current load? If not, you may need to tweak your charge after the bore has settled.

And regarding the charge, how did you arrive at it? Did you run a charge test to find the node where velocity and ES were most consistent? Along with consistent ignition, this is the big one for controlling ES.

Last, did you run seating depth tests? I know you're shooting Hammer Bullets and they're less sensitive to depth changes, but I have consistently been able to refine them with testing (I shoot Hammers). This is a secondary effect on ES, but it will affect it.

I was actually just looking at the web page for the scale Reno recommended. That looks tempting but im not certain I can trust digital scales?
My rifles: they all have at least 100rds down except my new 6.5 Grendel which has only 40rds down it. Im aware that velocity and accuracy settle in after a hundred rounds or so. The main rifle I care about is my 280AI has to be dialed in by this fall (I drew an any bull tag) and I pretty much have my recipe for it Id just like to improve my ES on it. The other rifles are just for fun though I do hunt deer with them. Im using exclusively Hammers. I run an initial pressure ladder to find pressure and then back off about a grain, the Hammers just group the same in all my efforts regardless of charge weight or seating depths. Then I load at least 10rds at the charge weight and check my zero and ES. The zero and 1" group is good, but the ES is around 50 and id like to improve it.

 

[Xmark1]

Yes on all that. I should have come to the class I know.
I feel confident in my consistency as Im pretty... um, anal about things.
Peterson brass, cant get better I hear...
Trim length, seating depth all within +/-.002"... but, I will pay closer attention to trim lenght as I dont really enjoy trimming.
Neck tension is what my dies give me. They all seem to give .002". Do I need to upgrade to bushing dies to add more neck tension?
Powder weight: thankfully im only loading small batches about 20rds at a time I use an analog scale and double check it with a cheap digital scale. I feel confident my charge weights are consitently the same charge weight.
Seating dept: always to the ogive. I double check the coal anyways and the Hammer bullets are so precise theres never more than .001" deviation.
Primer depth is a new one: I use a RCBS hand tool thing and if its inconsistent then Im all ears.
Concentricity: another thing out of my control. Should I invest in a runout gauge? then what?

Long ago I was told concentricity was important.
I bought the tools to turn my necks and measure for perfect concentricity, I saw no noticeable improvement in performance.
Furthermore, it's easy to screw up my cases when I turn them because the junction between neck & shoulder gets messed up. I no longer turn necks.
My 2 cents.