Improving precision

[Koda]

I've tried them in .257, .308, and .338 with mixed results. The XPB's are ok for 45 Colt, but they only go up to 275gr and I feel there are better choices.
It's got to be user error, since they seem to sell a gang load of bullets and ammo.

Id need to have a bolt action in 223 to truly have an opinion but I easily got much better groups with Hammer monos over Barnes in my deer rifle.
Meanwhile, Barnes "x" gets rave reviews in hunting forums. My hunting friend is getting 1moa with factory ammo loaded with TTSX in his 7mm mag.

 

[osprey]

I am going to try the hammers in my 280 ai at some point. They seem to have their own loading nuances with the radiused driving bands. Some say they have better luck with them when applying a crimp to get more neck tensison.

 

[Koda]

I am going to try the hammers in my 280 ai at some point. They seem to have their own loading nuances with the radiused driving bands. Some say they have better luck with them when applying a crimp to get more neck tensison.

Im planning on using them in my elk rifle whenever i get it back. Meanwhile i tried them in my lever gun and the handload was by far the simplest, exactly as advertised.... The initial ladder test grouped all the same, just load to velocity and zero.

 

[Spitpatch]

Probably not the bullet I would choose for any sort of big game hunting but 60gr ballistic tips with a case full or AR comp is serendipitous in many of my gas guns and a boltie. Although, I believe @Spitpatch has used this bullet to good effect on deer.

55grain Ballistic Tip ahead of 25.0grains of H335 with a benchrest primer is a "go-to" for me when starting with a .223 new to the stable (and it is this load that has done so admirably in our deer/antelope camp).

It is below maximum, but plenty of power to operate a semi-auto. With some fooling around, one can often improve upon it with certain guns, but it serves as a bellweather starting point, and a reference toward which other loads can be measured.

Never forget:
The bullet is the first and most influential component when loading for accuracy. With a good powder charge recommendation from the books, and all attention to consistency in the loading process, shop the bullets for those one or two favored by your gun.

For me, it has NEVER been a solid bullet. (And I do keep trying them.)

 

[SCLU]

One question I have is would sorting my bullets and brass by weight help?

Also, my ES isnt the best, about 50fps. Im not certain how to lower that... I cant change primers but I do have some different powder to try.

Meh. I've seen better results with properly scaled ladders, consistent neck tensions and finding the right COAL.

I've shot .5 MOA groups with a .308 using nothing but range pick up brass.

I start with .5gr ladders. Take the lowest high and highest low and make that your range. Usually the sweet spot will be within that range. After I have a node, I'll go +1 grain and -1grain on each side of that node and make .3gr ladder.

Accuracy node is say 22.5 using .5gr spread. I'll make a new ladder using 21.5, 21.8, 22.1, 22.4, 22.7, 23 and 23.3. I've gone down too .2gr ladders in the 6.5CM.

This of course is after I settle on a COAL. Increasing/decreasing COAL will change pressures and velocities. Meticulous on brass prep and uniformity.

 

[Koda]

This of course is after I settle on a COAL.

So you do this before you do a fine tune ladder? How do you determine what COAL to use?

 

[SCLU]

So you do this before you do a fine tune ladder? How do you determine what COAL to use?

Bear with me and welcome to my hell.

Lock-N-Load® O.A.L. Gauges & Modified Cases - Hornady Manufacturing, Inc

Lock-N-Load® O.A.L. Gauges Regulating seating depth and the resulting jump to the rifling is widely regarded as fundamental to improved accuracy. A few thousandths of an inch change between the bullet and the rifling can make the difference be...

www.hornady.com

If you lengthen your coal after powder load selected you will lower your POI. Shorten coal and POI raises. Node size shouldn't change unless you mess with other variables.

I personally do coal based on bullet so it clears magazines and some like my .223 load it's 2.200" on a 55gr sp.

But.. I like to keep length set and xxx off the lands, normally I run .025"-.015" as a general rule IF I can clear a magazine. Some of my .308 loads are one at a time and won't fit in mag so they are 2.885" or something like that but they are too long for magazine length. This load was developed to run 2700fps with 168gr SMK's on a 20" barrel.

Devil is in the details. Change one variable at a time. I'm by nature a meticulous person and will quibble over a few .001's but don't care much about other things.

I'm no expert, I did stay on a sleep number bed last night. Don't go down a rabbit hole with concentricity gauges until you are making sharpie holes and not having fun.

Google barrel harmonics and powder burn.
I'll start you:

Ballistics: Understanding Barrel Harmonics and Accuracy

"Barrel harmonics refers to how a barrel whips, torques and contorts. The idea of accuracy is simply a set of repeatable barrel harmonics.

gundigest.com

Rifle Accuracy: Barrel Harmonics Effects on Rifle Accuracy Explained

Rifle Barrel Harmonics - F.J. Feddersen

F.J. Feddersen uses advanced barrel dynamics for their award winning 10/22™ match-grade rifle barrels. We understand gun barrel harmonics.

fjfeddersen.com

Harmonics, not velocity is your friend. Find the harmonic wave. Most of my loads are in the mid to lower end of the powder spread. One load is 2.5gr over max but the pressure and velocity is lower because the bullet is barely seated in the case.


YMMV

 

[ron]

My qualifies is that I load thousands of 223 ammo annually for Highpower rifle competition out to 600 yards.
I am able to load consistent 1/2 MOA or better for competition. I have tried many different brands of
55 grain bullets and never found one that shoots that well. Sierra 52 and 53 Match kings are an outstanding
performing bullet in ANY twist barrel. I like these on the 'short line' (200yard). As for longer
range it is hard to beet the 77 SMK loaded to magazine length. I like W748 or H335 powder for the lighter weight
bullets. For 69 and heavier I use N140, IMR 8208 XBR and H4895. I use Winchester brass for better accuracy.

PSA 223 Wylde 18" / 1:7

If you want to chase sub MOA groups I don't think you can't get there with a 18 inch PSA barrel. I get excellent results
with WOA and Compass Lake Engineering 20 inch barrels.

White Oak Pre-ban Service Rifle Barrels

5SRB-WOA This is the same AR15 service rifle barrel we use in our championship-winning White Oak Armament CMP Uppers. In .223/5.56 Wylde chamber, it is 20 inches in length with a 1-7 or 1-8 twist, 11 degree target crown and fitted extension. The muzzle is

www.whiteoakarmament.com

I have purchased several of these $225 barrel that produce sub 1/2 MOA groups.

Shop High Power / Match Competition | White Oak Armament

Find the best selection and prices on High Power / Match Competition Barrels

www.whiteoakarmament.com

Service Rifle Barrel – Compass Lake Engineering, LLC

Note: Our barrels are turned to order with a 12 week lead time.

compasslake.com

 

[Dr Prepper]

My qualifies is that I load thousands of 223 ammo annually for Highpower rifle competition out to 600 yards.
I am able to load consistent 1/2 MOA or better for competition. I have tried many different brands of
55 grain bullets and never found one that shoots that well. Sierra 52 and 53 Match kings are an outstanding
performing bullet in ANY twist barrel. I like these on the 'short line' (200yard). As for longer
range it is hard to beet the 77 SMK loaded to magazine length. I like W748 or H335 powder for the lighter weight
bullets. For 69 and heavier I use N140, IMR 8208 XBR and H4895. I use Winchester brass for better accuracy.

If you want to chase sub MOA groups I don't think you can't get there with a 18 inch PSA barrel. I get excellent results
with WOA and Compass Lake Engineering 20 inch barrels.

White Oak Pre-ban Service Rifle Barrels

5SRB-WOA This is the same AR15 service rifle barrel we use in our championship-winning White Oak Armament CMP Uppers. In .223/5.56 Wylde chamber, it is 20 inches in length with a 1-7 or 1-8 twist, 11 degree target crown and fitted extension. The muzzle is

www.whiteoakarmament.com

I have purchased several of these $225 barrel that produce sub 1/2 MOA groups.

Shop High Power / Match Competition | White Oak Armament

Find the best selection and prices on High Power / Match Competition Barrels

www.whiteoakarmament.com

Service Rifle Barrel – Compass Lake Engineering, LLC

Note: Our barrels are turned to order with a 12 week lead time.

compasslake.com

A few points of note.
First before I forget, I just got a email a day or two ago that White Oak Armament is doing their yearly AArgh / talk like a pirate day sale, Its for one day - Monday. See the pic below.


Ok so a few things worth noting, and you can go way down the rabbit hole with this. And like I mentioned before, its almost guaranteed pointless in a non "precision" rifle. But since your asking.
First the quite low hanging fruit. Check out barrel tuner brakes.. Erik Cortina and a few others are making them now. You can also get the old school one I use for .22 lr where you can't really modify the charge which is a "barrel de resonator" made by the limb saver co. (I think right here in WA. IIRC. it's just a like a foam rubber "biscuit" kinda thing like a fat grommet that friction fits over your barrel kinda the same material as buttpad stock cushion.
Then you can go the mechanical route. With the adjustable weight/brake at the end of your barrel, both are proven methods.

The other proven method is in regards to bullet seating jump to land. Even the owner creator of the now famed primal rights primer sealer most national competition shooter use is find a decent load (and make DAMN SURE your setup the way you actually plan to run think ahead and don't waste all this time and money doing this then change a part/component.) So find a decent load, then adjust your seating COAL in .004" increments shoot a few groups of those. Pick the best group and maybe slightly adjust the powder charge again, shoot a few ladder groups, then maybe adjust the seating depths .002" IIRC and ALWAYS pick the seating depth that is one back from the longest COAL that shoots well so as your throat errodes (if you suspect it errodes do to eventually change in group size) you test it by loading a group of 5 to the next length out +.003" shoot that group and if it shoot better than that is your new seating depth.

This is pretty much all dictated by magazine length and bullet jump to lands. Some chambers throats are cut so long like 5.56 chamber IIRC that even loading to mag length won't really get you where you *want* to be.

For other cases where the *bullet jam" IS close to the loaded mag length make your first loads for that charge roughly -.025" starting. This way you can move the bullet further out with only a drop in pressure. (more case cap.) Decreases pressure. Moving bullets further INTO the case makes higher pressure. Therefore its easier to start deeper into the case and move out closer into the throat/lands as you progress. Small changes won't have a massive effect such as .003" etc but .0625" (1/16") deeper can raise the pressure fairly dramatically by thousands of PSI depending on the load (esp. near max).

I also heard a pretty good argument one guy made regarding this issue shooting a particular cartridge (I wish I could remember such details) but he was saying he actually setup and shoots a short action cartridge out of a long action just so he has SOO much room to play around with seating depth (it was one of those notoriously long bullet cartridges) I'm certainly no expert on bolt action guns but I'm heading that way trying to get wiser before I try and get into that (hopefully before my eyes fail).

Check out some Erik Cortina and primal rights videos. There's a wealth of knowledge all around for free these days. Erik is doing a newer series where he interviews manufacturers of the equipment used in long range "PRS" type matches and KOTM (thats king of two mile) and Olympic medalists. They know what they are talking about, and they all usually at doing the exact same things as the next closest competing guy.

https://m.youtube.com/user/primalrights

Erik Cortina interviewing champions and heads of industry on his other channel "believe the target"

https://m.youtube.com/channel/UC-1YeW_BlvBpnMi0cTV_Qgw/videos

Good luck!

 

[Dr Prepper]

And with all that said.. You could do all that but I doubt you will see a major appreciable different out of an AR. I'd be happy with anything around the .4 - .5 moa territory.

 

[Member 34319]

Sierra 52 and 53 Match kings are an outstanding performing bullet in ANY twist barrel.

I learned the hard way thinking heavier was better. Chased 69s and 77s for so long. Only to find that the 52s are pretty much the best overall and consistently precise lot to lot.

 

[ron]

I learned the hard way thinking heavier was better. Chased 69s and 77s for so long. Only to find that the 52s are pretty much the best overall and consistently precise lot to lot.

52 SMK is a boat tail and 53 SMK flat bottom produced some amazing 1/4" (5 shot groups) @ 100 yards. I like to
use 26 grains of W748 and Winchester cases. W748 meters perfectly in my Dillon powder thrower.
I have tested these bullets in 1/9 , 1/8 and 1/7 twist barrels yield excellent groups. The flat bottom 53 SMK
has a very slight advantage. 53 SMK also seems to work slightly better in a worn barrel. As always check
all "Internet loads" with published load data.

 

[DirectDrive]

Match Kings
Sort brass (head stamp)
Weigh brass
Trim brass
Good trigger
Proper technique - after settling in (get comfortable) I like to send it on the start of the exhale (top 1/3 - 1/2 of the exhale)
Let the barrel cool between shots (try 2-3 minutes and adjust as needed)

Do all that and I betcha those groups will tighten up

 

[Member 34319]

52 SMK is a boat tail and 53 SMK flat bottom produced some amazing 1/4" (5 shot groups) @ 100 yards. I like to
use 26 grains of W748 and Winchester cases. W748 meters perfectly in my Dillon powder thrower.
I have tested these bullets in 1/9 , 1/8 and 1/7 twist barrels yield excellent groups. The flat bottom 53 SMK
has a very slight advantage. 53 SMK also seems to work slightly better in a worn barrel. As always check
all "Internet loads" with published load data.

I haven't tried the 53 Match Kings yet just 53 grain Vmax which I'm still trying to get tighter. The 53g sierras are now in the list to try, if I see them I'll grab a box.

 

[DirectDrive]

I haven't tried the 53 Match Kings yet just 53 grain Vmax which I'm still trying to get tighter. The 53g sierras are now in the list to try, if I see them I'll grab a box.

View attachment 1278746

VMAX is a varmint bullet and TSX is a hunting bullet.
They're good bullets but if I'm out to impress my friends with some tight groups, I'm reaching for a bona fide match bullet.

 

[Member 34319]

Here you go @Koda fresh from this morning at the range. Completely mixed brass. No cases measured, nor bullets. Only thing not noted in the picture is the scope. I use an Arken SH4 Gen 2 4-16x50 in an Arken mount. POF service trigger, I think it is 4 pounds. Otherwise the Springfield is stock. Unless you count the suppressor and mount.

It's takes a bit to find a bullet/powder combo. However don't really sweat the other stuff until you find that. A good rest or consistent rest set up is also very crucial. I've also got many thousands of rounds through this AR15 and I shoot it well. If you are fighting your gun or rest in any way, it makes for poor results usually.

Best of luck finding the right one for getting your groups tighter!

 

[Koda]

@Reno thats some fine shooting and handloading, thank you for sharing that and thinking of me.

It's takes a bit to find a bullet/powder combo. However don't really sweat the other stuff until you find that.

Im in no hurry, handloading for my AR is entirely for learning. Its on hold until after hunting season but I do plan to try some different combinations of bullets and powder, including some non hunting bullets just to learn with....

heres a node I found working up an initial ladder with target bullets only. They were actually shooting terribly huge groups but then suddenly one charge weight put everything in a .6 moa. I need to get back to this node...

 

[Dr Prepper]

I've been curious about those bobs bullets. I also use 2520. Looking forward to trying BL-C2, 8208, TAC, RL15 and maybe one or two others I've collected since my last venture into .223/5.56. So far I've been very unimpressed with 55 grainiers. But I've only tried one with 332 and 2520.
So still lots to learn and try.

 

[Member 34319]

@Reno thats some fine shooting and handloading, thank you for sharing that and thinking of me.


Im in no hurry, handloading for my AR is entirely for learning. Its on hold until after hunting season but I do plan to try some different combinations of bullets and powder, including some non hunting bullets just to learn with....

heres a node I found working up an initial ladder with target bullets only. They were actually shooting terribly huge groups but then suddenly one charge weight put everything in a .6 moa. I need to get back to this node...

View attachment 1282069

I was reading this thread the other day and going through my load notebook. Figured I'd blend my best results with mixed brass and minimal concern to other variables. See if it really mattered. I knew it doesn't from reading notes from way back, but I have really used range brass for precision stuff in some time. Now I'm second guessing all the time I spend sorting brass by headstamp!

 

[Ckgworks]

W748
Cfe223
Varget
Are 3 powders I use alot in 223.
Cfe shoots best at near max loads for me, and I do use 50 gr Barnes for a predator calling load. Solid coppers are longer and typically require faster twist than their equal weight cup n core counterparts, so you should be fine on twist. I have shot many 45 gr accurate loads in my 1-7 twist AR. I second the scope comment, I'll use a larger scope for load work up, and then switch to a lower power to leave on the gun. You don't need premium brass in a AR, but at least sort it by head stamp. I wouldn't call the Barnes a accuracy bullet though and think you'd be much better served by a flat base varmint bullet, that said I would expect you should be able to do better than you are. Ar's are capable of outstanding accuracy, below is a group shot with cfe223, 50 grain bullets, head stamp sorted brass.