Improving Extreme Spread

[Koda]

So Im loading for 4 calibers now and have some good hunting loads but my ES is not that great generally about 50fps give or take. Im really meticulous with my method and using good components so Im not certain what else to do to improve my ES. Before anyone starts suggesting trying a new component, Ive done that and am pretty much done with splurging hundreds of dollars on some 'other' hard to find powder or primer. I need to learn to load what I got at this point.

Ive read somewhere that if your ES sucks your method is inconsistent. I searched for what a "good ES" is in loading blogs and its subjective like most things and spread out as bad as my ES is... lol. Generally anything under 25fps is "really good", ammo thats under 50fps is "pretty good"...

Obviously a single digit ES is ideal, but what is a max acceptable ES to strive for?

And what are some method techniques to improve ES?

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[DizzyJ]

Consistency in everything.
Brass
Internal volume
Trim length
Bullets
Neck tension
Powder weight
Concentricity
Primer depth
Bullet Seating depth
Etc
Etc

Seems there was a 7 hour class that covered all of this earlier this year

 

[Snip]

There's multiple things to control:
1. Amount of powder in the case. Going with a scale that can measure to the grain should help. Better than a volumetric measure or a powder dropper and a scale that probably isn't as accurate as the FX120i.
2. Case prep. Using the same case manufacturers will help to keep the volume consistent.
3. Seating depth consistency.
4. How good are your measurements? Is your measurement system linear? How could you determine a level of error?

 

[Certaindeaf]

Try loading the powder by volume instead of weight.

 

[P7M13]

^^^ What @DizzyJ said ^^^
Plus....
getting consistent firing pin strike also plays a very large role in getting ES down into the single digits. For Savage and Remington rifles, there are specialists who will do a firing pin tuning / bearing bushing job on those bolts, as well as change your bolt timing so you barely even feel the cocking of the bolt.

That said, I have been very happy with ES in the 15 range, but another thing I found is loads that shoot in the .3's (groups of five that are .3MOA extreme spread) that have a ES of ~45. I walk away from shooting sessions like that where I'm happy and know that I might think I know a few things, but really don't know 5h1t.

[edit to add]

Try loading the powder by volume instead of weight.

Oh man, I used to go nuts trying to get my auto powder feeder trickler (not a spendy FX20i) to hit on the money and it caused more frustration than ever. Found two Belding and Mull volume powder drops at H&K Gunshop in Forest Grove. Fast, extremely accurate. Ball and flake powder drops within .1 grain every time. Long stick powder might vary by .3gr.

 

[Koda]

Consistency in everything.
Brass
Internal volume
Trim length
Bullets
Neck tension
Powder weight
Concentricity
Primer depth
Bullet Seating depth
Etc
Etc

Seems there was a 7 hour class that covered all of this earlier this year

Yes on all that. I should have come to the class I know.
I feel confident in my consistency as Im pretty... um, anal about things.
Peterson brass, cant get better I hear...
Trim length, seating depth all within +/-.002"... but, I will pay closer attention to trim lenght as I dont really enjoy trimming.
Neck tension is what my dies give me. They all seem to give .002". Do I need to upgrade to bushing dies to add more neck tension?
Powder weight: thankfully im only loading small batches about 20rds at a time I use an analog scale and double check it with a cheap digital scale. I feel confident my charge weights are consitently the same charge weight.
Seating dept: always to the ogive. I double check the coal anyways and the Hammer bullets are so precise theres never more than .001" deviation.
Primer depth is a new one: I use a RCBS hand tool thing and if its inconsistent then Im all ears.
Concentricity: another thing out of my control. Should I invest in a runout gauge? then what?

 

[Koda]

There's multiple things to control:
1. Amount of powder in the case. Going with a scale that can measure to the grain should help. Better than a volumetric measure or a powder dropper and a scale that probably isn't as accurate as the FX120i.
2. Case prep. Using the same case manufacturers will help to keep the volume consistent.
3. Seating depth consistency.
4. How good are your measurements? Is your measurement system linear? How could you determine a level of error?

I use a Lyman analog (beam type) scale. Its accurate to 1/10th a grain.
I use all the same case mfg for each caliber. I keep track of how many firings. I anneal each time and bump the shoulder back about .002-.003.
Seating depth is always with .002"

Im not certain what a linear measurement system is? I use Mitutoyo calipers and light finger pressure as I can squeeze a couple thou more.

 

[Koda]

Try loading the powder by volume instead of weight.

I feel like that would be like starting completely over for me.... ?

 

[Certaindeaf]

^^^ What @DizzyJ said ^^^
Plus....
getting consistent firing pin strike also plays a very large role in getting ES down into the single digits. For Savage and Remington rifles, there are specialists who will do a firing pin tuning / bearing bushing job on those bolts, as well as change your bolt timing so you barely even feel the cocking of the bolt.

That said, I have been very happy with ES in the 15 range, but another thing I found is loads that shoot in the .3's (groups of five that are .3MOA extreme spread) that have a ES of ~45. I walk away from shooting sessions like that where I'm happy and know that I might think I know a few things, but really don't know 5h1t.

[edit to add]

Oh man, I used to go nuts trying to get my auto powder feeder trickler (not a spendy FX20i) to hit on the money and it caused more frustration than ever. Found two Belding and Mull volume powder drops at H&K Gunshop in Forest Grove. Fast, extremely accurate. Ball and flake powder drops within .1 grain every time. Long stick powder might vary by .3gr.

A lot of BR shooters load by volume, not weight. thinking consistent volume, not weight is more important.

 

[Koda]

^^^ What @DizzyJ said ^^^
Plus....
getting consistent firing pin strike also plays a very large role in getting ES down into the single digits. For Savage and Remington rifles, there are specialists who will do a firing pin tuning / bearing bushing job on those bolts, as well as change your bolt timing so you barely even feel the cocking of the bolt.

That said, I have been very happy with ES in the 15 range, but another thing I found is loads that shoot in the .3's (groups of five that are .3MOA extreme spread) that have a ES of ~45. I walk away from shooting sessions like that where I'm happy and know that I might think I know a few things, but really don't know 5h1t.

[edit to add]

Oh man, I used to go nuts trying to get my auto powder feeder trickler (not a spendy FX20i) to hit on the money and it caused more frustration than ever. Found two Belding and Mull volume powder drops at H&K Gunshop in Forest Grove. Fast, extremely accurate. Ball and flake powder drops within .1 grain every time. Long stick powder might vary by .3gr.

3 of the 4 rifles are virtually brand new. The main rifle I focus on is a brand new Browning xbolt. I really hope I dont need to modify or improve anything cause Im outta cash been buying guns and powder and stuff since 114 passed.
Im gettin 1moa with my handload, hitting out to 300yds but now I want to learn to shoot long range with it so thats why Im concerned about improving my ES.

 

[Snip]

Try loading the powder by volume instead of weight.

I load using a Dillon 1050 with a volumetric dispenser. It's fast, but not accurate or consistent. I'm not a bench rest shooter by any stretch of the imagination, but wouldn't consistency matter more than volume?

 

[Certaindeaf]

I load using a Dillon 1050 with a volumetric dispenser. It's fast, but not accurate or consistent. I'm not a bench rest shooter by any stretch of the imagination, but wouldn't consistency matter more than volume?

There are a lot of articles on it.. it's not new. Oh, and volume is consistent by definition.

 

[saxon]

ES is not a be all end all
i have a 300 AAc load that runs around 25 es
that at 50 yards leaves one ragged hole,,,

 

[MTpockets]

If you haven't research how temperature (ie. air temps, chamber temps, etc.) affect ballistics, it might be something worth looking into.
For extreme spread…you would be looking at how change in the temperature affects the cartridge and type of powder used.

 

[Certaindeaf]

ES is not a be all end all
i have a 300 AAc load that runs around 25 es
that at 50 yards leaves one ragged hole,,,

How ragged? A Ruger 9mm carbine will do a 1" ragged hole at 50 yards with Winchester white box.

 

[Koda]

If you haven't research how temperature (ie. air temps, chamber temps, etc.) affect ballistics, it might be something worth looking into.
For extreme spread…you would be looking at how change in the temperature affects the cartridge and type of powder used.

Im aware temp can affect powder and ballistics. Nothing I can do about that, I would think the ES would still be consistent even if the velocity and pressure changes?

 

[P7M13]

Peterson brass, cant get better I hear...

It's nice brass, have a couple hundred in different calibers. I also shoot with Lapua, Norma, and PPU. Between the four mentioned, I have found them to all be consistent in their lots, and frankly, they provide a consistency that's better than my skill. I haven't loaded enough times on either brand to say which lasts longer, but I can tell you that Lapua is some tough brass. People talk about ADG being the cat's meow too.

Trim length, seating depth all within +/-.002"... but, I will pay closer attention to trim lenght as I dont really enjoy trimming.
Neck tension is what my dies give me. They all seem to give .002". Do I need to upgrade to bushing dies to add more neck tension?
....
Concentricity: another thing out of my control. Should I invest in a runout gauge? then what?

If you're trimming within 0.002, you're doing great. IMO, trim length is very minor on the effectiveness scale, so I'll do a quick check of my brass, and rarely wind up trimming.
Neck tension matters a whole lot. While your dies give you adequate tension, the "hardness" of the brass has greater determination on consistency. Hence, I'll anneal my necks. When you seat, you can feel the difference between a hard neck and a regular one.
Concentricity -- I have a concentricity gauge and consider the cost of it a waste. For years I used a machinist's stone to measure concentricity. Roll the cartridge on it, and you can easily see 0.004" wobble (i.e. +/- 0.002 thousandths.). I don't need a gauge setup to confirm what I can already see.

You didn't mention it, but after fireforming to your chamber, I hope you are just neck sizing/shoulder bumping. That makes gives you the most consistent internal case volume.

In reality, all this rabbit hole stuff is OCD, and makes little overall difference compared to the most vital skills : hold, cheek weld, sight picture and trigger discipline.
Proper, consistent hold gives you proper, consistent cheek weld which yields optimal sight picture. Smooth, deliberate trigger pull brings it all home.
Once you got all that down, you'll then see what a difference loading technique makes, and it makes it easier to zero in on a good load.
After you master that, then comes reading the wind.

There are a lot of articles on it.. it's not new. Oh, and volume is consistent by definition.

Until space folds....

 

[MTpockets]

Im aware temp can affect powder and ballistics. Nothing I can do about that, I would think the ES would still be consistent even if the velocity and pressure changes?

You can control the temperature of the ammunition.
You can control the chamber temperature and the barrel temperature between shots.

New propellants are affected less, but they are still affected.

 

[Koda]

Neck tension matters a whole lot. While your dies give you adequate tension, the "hardness" of the brass has greater determination on consistency. Hence, I'll anneal my necks. When you seat, you can feel the difference between a hard neck and a regular one.

Ive heard that neck tension matters, I just have no way to control it unless I step up to bushing dies. Im not against that idea, I just dont know if it will improve my ES.

I was wondering if annealing would come up. I anneal after every firing as I learned I could control my shoulder bumping within +/- .002. I think annealing is the one step thats probably the most inconsistent because I dont have an annealing machine cause of their cost. I try to be consistent and follow the same exact technique but I dont know how exact each piece to piece is.... essentially if the neck shoulder area is annealed evenly for each brass. I chuck the case in a Lee trim holder in my hand drill, set the propane torch to a 1in tall blue flame, roatate the neck shoulder for 5 to 8 seconds (depending on case size) or a red glow. Quench in water to stop the annealing process from going further down the case). Ever since I experimented with annealing my shoulder bumping became way more precise.... though I dont know how much it affects velocity and ES.

 

[Koda]

You can control the temperature of the ammunition.
You can control the chamber temperature and the barrel temperature between shots.

New propellants are affected less, but they are still affected.

View attachment 1451850

ok this is helpful, I know to let my barrel cool but in summer its more difficult or takes longer and I probably get impatient. Ive ran an ice cube down the barrel which works really quick but that doesnt cool the chamber. I havent put these two areas together on this.
Im using H4350 and my guess is its virtually the same as IMR4350?